Will Harvest Become Core Path of Exile Content?

I find it very strange how people justify their likes/dislikes of Harvest when it is really quite simple.

Deterministic crafting? Awesome. All the micromanagement BS? unnecessary and not fun.

I still have some hope that GGG will be able to understand what the hell happened in Harvest and what people like and dislike. The difficulty (as I see it) is that most people don't explain it very well. They have not thought it through properly. Every time I see a post claiming that Harvest rewards are terrible I shake my head. Every time I see a post claiming that the garden was fun and awesome I question what Universe that person is living in.

As long as GGG refuses to test the leagues and refuses to give instructions on how to avoid the league being a terrible experience there will be issues. I usually agree with GGG's choices but these two easy fixes would solve 99% of the problems. Does anyone really dispute that if Harvest had a week Beta with the power players that all the problem areas would have been exposed? It is the same thing in lesser degrees with every league.

It is the implementation that GGG messed up with. There have only been two recent leagues that I have had huge issues with and that is Harvest and Synthesis. And the shame of it is that these leagues are likely the best ideas that GGG has had.....they just blew the execution.

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h_marvin wrote:

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Asra101010 wrote:

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Zanapher91 wrote:

It's like you want the perfect summer body shape in 1 month without any effort.

That is exactly what people wants and complain about.
They are playing a game developed by a company called Grinding Gear Games, where is in its DNA that you need to spend shitload of time to get your hands on GG items and then they complain about the fact that you need to play a lot in Poe to succeed.
This game needs a lot of time investment. Period. Deal with it.
You can either realise that a so time-consuming game doesn't fit your life style and just play another game or play Standard where you don't have the 3 months limit and you can just play at your pace and take 8 months to finish 1 character.
I have chosen the Standard route for example.

The issue is not that PoE requires time, that’s fine. The issue is, that by needing less time to grid minor upgrades, you realize that you run out of content earlier. People didn’t quit Harvest early because it was bad. They quit because the game doesn’t offer a lot of content if the whole grinding shit gear part is gone.

Well if in your opinion this game doesn't have much contents.. Don't know what to say.. It's literally sunk in the contents.. You know 7 yrs of development, dozen of leagues.. People even complain that the amount of content is overwhelming.
If you take out of Poe the grinding part, you're taking out the quintessence of the game. Is like you take the ball off Fifa20 lol

Just want to share what I've found really interesting today in reddit

"The vocal casuals appear to have a far higher level of entitlement per hour they put into the game. The casual, self-admittedly does not play as much as more hardcore players. It likely follows that their skill level is lower, their knowledge of the systems is lower and likely that their understanding of what makes the game so enjoyable throughout time is marred by Dunning Kruger. They believe they understand what makes the game fun but they simply don't have the skill in both the game and games development to be able to suggest what is best for the game. It is like a Sunday league footballer arguing that the offside rule should be removed because it is tedious and only affects the top 1% of games. To be entitled to suggesting changes to a game, one should be fully invested in that game as a bare minimum, and even at that point one should acknowledge that their own personal biases to what feels good in the moment may not line up to the developers vision of the game. At which point instead of trying to argue that the game should be changed to suit their vision, one should find a game that suits their ideals more accurately. It is simply unfair to those who are heavily invested in the game, for people who have a much lower level of investment to try and push their own agenda on the game. Games Development is not democratic, being a majority does not give a right to enact change onto the game. If a demographic, play far far less, it is probably the group who plays far more that has a priority, in the eyes of the developer, especially if the game is free to play like PoE and hours played probably correlates to money spent on the game, quite closely".

Credit:https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/iap8je/meta_dunning_kruger_the_three_way_war_between/

I have mixed feelings about this league.
Since Legion league I have usually created 2 characters every league.

1 - Necro Carrion golem - Usually League starter
2 - Duelist (Champ/Glad/Slayer) - Cyclone

I usually farm with the Necro until I have enough currency to make some sort of an expensive cyclone character.

This league I managed to make my most expensive slayer cyclone then any previous league. And I got to try out the OP chest and curse rings and what not. And I must say I was quite disappointed. Felt like my Carrion Golem was shredding end game content in minutes. And with slayer I am dying to Hunter. So now I wonder if it is actually the gear or the class/skill gem. I mean I do have experience playing cyclone. Legion league I mostly played a Slayer Atziri Vaal axe cyclone the whole league so not sure if that is the issue.

Especially since my carrion golem character gear was worth probably around 3-5 ex in total. So in one hand it was fun to craft, on the other hand I used no Harvest crafted items on my Necro that got me through 36 challenges this league. So I guess for next league unless the carrion golem build gets a nerf losing harvest doesn't make a difference in terms of my character. But it was fun to craft for others and make friends. I guess I will miss that aspect. Not enough player interaction in POE this league outside of that.

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Asra101010 wrote:

Just want to share what I've found really interesting today in reddit

"The vocal casuals appear to have a far higher level of entitlement per hour they put into the game. The casual, self-admittedly does not play as much as more hardcore players. It likely follows that their skill level is lower, their knowledge of the systems is lower and likely that their understanding of what makes the game so enjoyable throughout time is marred by Dunning Kruger. They believe they understand what makes the game fun but they simply don't have the skill in both the game and games development to be able to suggest what is best for the game. It is like a Sunday league footballer arguing that the offside rule should be removed because it is tedious and only affects the top 1% of games. To be entitled to suggesting changes to a game, one should be fully invested in that game as a bare minimum, and even at that point one should acknowledge that their own personal biases to what feels good in the moment may not line up to the developers vision of the game. At which point instead of trying to argue that the game should be changed to suit their vision, one should find a game that suits their ideals more accurately. It is simply unfair to those who are heavily invested in the game, for people who have a much lower level of investment to try and push their own agenda on the game. Games Development is not democratic, being a majority does not give a right to enact change onto the game. If a demographic, play far far less, it is probably the group who plays far more that has a priority, in the eyes of the developer, especially if the game is free to play like PoE and hours played probably correlates to money spent on the game, quite closely".

Credit:https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/iap8je/meta_dunning_kruger_the_three_way_war_between/

There is some merit to that but it's far too simplistic.
There have been many voices in this thread coming from year long supporters with sometimes dozens of supporter tags who also spoke IN FAVOR of deterministic crafting.
It's not just the noobs who don't know the game that want that added somehow.

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Wissle wrote:

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Asra101010 wrote:

Just want to share what I've found really interesting today in reddit

"The vocal casuals appear to have a far higher level of entitlement per hour they put into the game. The casual, self-admittedly does not play as much as more hardcore players. It likely follows that their skill level is lower, their knowledge of the systems is lower and likely that their understanding of what makes the game so enjoyable throughout time is marred by Dunning Kruger. They believe they understand what makes the game fun but they simply don't have the skill in both the game and games development to be able to suggest what is best for the game. It is like a Sunday league footballer arguing that the offside rule should be removed because it is tedious and only affects the top 1% of games. To be entitled to suggesting changes to a game, one should be fully invested in that game as a bare minimum, and even at that point one should acknowledge that their own personal biases to what feels good in the moment may not line up to the developers vision of the game. At which point instead of trying to argue that the game should be changed to suit their vision, one should find a game that suits their ideals more accurately. It is simply unfair to those who are heavily invested in the game, for people who have a much lower level of investment to try and push their own agenda on the game. Games Development is not democratic, being a majority does not give a right to enact change onto the game. If a demographic, play far far less, it is probably the group who plays far more that has a priority, in the eyes of the developer, especially if the game is free to play like PoE and hours played probably correlates to money spent on the game, quite closely".

Credit:https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/iap8je/meta_dunning_kruger_the_three_way_war_between/

There is some merit to that but it's far too simplistic.
There have been many voices in this thread coming from year long supporters with sometimes dozens of supporter tags who also spoke IN FAVOR of deterministic crafting.
It's not just the noobs who don't know the game that want that added somehow.

I don't think that having spent lots of money or having played for years (maybe on and off, or with just a casual approach, or just a few hours per week) makes anyone an expert.

For what I've seen and for my personal idea people who got over excited about the deterministic craft are people who never managed to get GG items before.

The point they are missing, in my opinion, is that they got over excited about that Explo Chest/TailElusive boots or whatever, exactly because they could not get one before Harvest due to the absurd luck/currencies needed to craft it. Once that item become easy to craft, no more excitement for them. With harvest crafting staying in the game, they would get it every fucking league and after a few leagues (actually much less) no more over excitement.. .. Just plain boredom in having an easy access to something that a few months ago was a wet dream.

And, as a reminder, no GG items are needed to complete the whole game.

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Reblinde wrote:

I don't think this is a good change for all the reasons stated.

Its not healthy or normal to have to play a game 4+ hours a day. Not for an adult, and not for a kid. We are not all streamers and streamers don't understand what it's like to have a real life and play just for fun.

I am someone who plays every league but due to family commitments I just can't play for the amount of time needed to access top tier.

And I have no interest in playing a game for leisure where I can't access the top tier.

I will need to consider if I continue playing after harvest, it will depend on the new things coming in, but as it stands now I think your logic is off and out of touch with the majority of people playing.

Edit: spelling mistake only

Then play standard where you have all the time in the world. People with limited time due to whatever their problems are, shouldn't be catered to when it means damaging the game.

Add the deterministic recipes into the core crafting systems coming in PoE 2 please. They are awesome.

Crafting is too tedious for 90% of the player base to even take part in it. Too random and too much grind. Something has got to give.

By the way the Harvest system is bad for core. Waiting for a % chance to come across seeds is worse grind than current crafting systems.

The recipes could easily be part of a craftsman camp or something, and require currencies just like our normal master crafting recipes.

Practically the same thing, only that you could say the craftsmen we come across have a limited access to recipes that increase as we get to end game and further still. Unlike our own master crafts which can be accessed regardless of progression (only limited by the item lvl crafted).

Things like 50 chromatics to change a random non red socket to a red socket, etc. Say a full 6 red sockets costing a maximum of 300 chromatics, or a combination of randomising sockets and making the rest red, etc, for a cheaper route. I mean, the current 3 same colour socket recipe is simply just bad and a waste of good chromatics. Too much rng people. Way too much. And that is 1 example.

All the mods available outside of fossils and other league specific crafts should have a group to allow for a more specific result. I can say spend 30 alterations in a row to get any random mod, or 30 alterations straight away to get a mod from a specific pool (like physical mod) without making things like fossils useless either leaving some unique modifiers as part of their own respective group. RNG still involved, but with more currency, it is more controlled. And it also gets rid of that bad day where you spend all your bloody currency and don't even get close to the result you wanted.

Would definitely make the depth of the game more accessible, and no, it will not dumb anything down. If anything, it will make more people take part in it and better crafting will also result in increasing accessibility to more content as well in the game. And there really is so much to do in this game most people don't even bother with it because they always reach that same point of feeling the grind and rng is too much to even bother with. Its reaching Korean MMO levels at this point.... and that is not good.

For all the apologists with "its called Grinding Gear Games".... and? What does that argument have to do with anything?

Nobody said get rid of the grind.
Nobody said hand things out for free.
Nobody said to get rid of mechanics.

Simply make it more interesting and accessible. There is absolutely no need to have THIS much grind and RNG in the game. You don't have to live on extremes people. Either grind endlessly away, or have things handed to you for free. There is a middle ground. Heck, its not even middle ground what I suggest, its actually still leaning into the grinding side of things.

Will definitely make the game much more interesting to many people as well in my opinion. I mean, I think its pretty clear that 90% of the player base leaves the game in the first month, and that is not good.

The only people that would even advocate blindly for more grinding hours are the people that clearly A) have too much free time or B) streamers, like Mathil, that clearly see the game as a job, not a game, and need to find ways to extend the time of their actions to make up for an entire season of streaming content.

The rest of the world does not care for such a grind.

No, an item being too hard to find is not the point of the game. Some of you people simply made it the point of the game. I've been playing since Diablo 1. And I disagree. Does that mean my opinion is the only one? Come at me bro! xD

Jokes aside, it sure is funny when people take their personal preference and make it the norm. GGG did not make this grindy RNG infested system to keep true to anything. They done it to extend playing hours for that 10% of the people that play the game all throughout a season. At which point, you are in fact the very people we should stop listening to in hopes that more people start playing the game for longer than 2 bloody weeks each season.

If anything, different people in GGG like different things as well. Chris for example does not even touch anything if it is not in Hardcore. Whilst others jokingly mock him saying "what is the point to Hardcore"... If it isnt obvious enough already, my point is that there are many different tastes to cater for in this game.

And enough with all the "casuals muaaaah" comments. I don't play as much as the "hardcoooooore maaaan" but I am far from a casual (and in fact usually among that 10% that sticks around through an entire league except this one). Ive done my fair share of builds (I'd say over 100 by now counting variants as well) that btw were not online copy pastes, and I too enjoy having a rare item be a special find that i come across.

So no, I do not want things handed to me, and I do not want the game dumbed down. I simply want it to be reasonable. And stop sending me to Standard (which, btw I play a lot of, so I don't even know what your point is with that one)... I want to play whatever league mechanic I want along with Standard, and I enjoy a progression on a new build that makes sense in terms of grinding time. At the moment, it does not make sense.

Deterministic crafting gets rid of tedious crap that makes the game annoying. I spent 200 alterations the other day to get my Quicksilver flask to have anti-freeze on it... And it never happened. (Some patch change made Quicksilver flasks not be able to get this mod anymore? Anyway)... Then I got it with my first 10 tries on another flask... Well guess what, I don't want it on another flask, i want it on a QS. Why? Why not? Whats it to you how I enjoy playing the game? Something as silly and as trivial as that should not be an issue in the game.

Its not like we are saying we want deterministic to the point that its the same as master crafting (complete control of each suffix and prefix) which means the proposed mechanic still has RNG in it, and spending more currency for those choices means that there is still grinding involved. So chill out people. Calm thy selves. Nobody is asking for 20 exalts to be dropping out of the sky and a mirror for every 5 maps we do. Chill out already.

A lot of this will be fixed anyway the moment we are rid of all this tedious sucky 6 link bs when PoE 2 drops. I just fear they will add more grind in more ways in other areas to make up for it... and I sure hope this is not the case and they take the chance with the rebranding of PoE2 to get a lot more people enjoying the game.

More people enjoying the game means more time playing it which means more chances of people spending money on it which means bigger budgets so we can all keep enjoying the game we love. Simple. There is really no reason at all to have an item and crafting system that 90% of the player base doesn't even get to experience because they are too bored of even bothering with all the RNG grind involved.

And all this, coming from someone that enjoys the current crafting system and gets involved with it, but simply finds it too tedious and grindy still.

And btw, for all the "amazing super awesome" players out there telling people what they should be doing (including to leave the game because they are "ruining" it)... Well, how about we reflect the same attitude back at you? Go and play SSF-H if the game is too easy, and sod off from Standard League. I sure do see many of you with high opinions of how easy this game is yet see very little of you in SSFH... Even more so people that just copy paste builds every league and then whine the game is too easy... Interesting to say the least.

And I've been playing since 2013. Why should I sod off? Why don't you if that is the kind of logic you use? By my standard and many others, you are the ones ruining the game...

Or, how about we all calm down a little, and find solutions so we can all be happy? Sounds like an idea? Yeah, lets try that for a change.

peace out.

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Rextec wrote:

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Reblinde wrote:

I don't think this is a good change for all the reasons stated.

Its not healthy or normal to have to play a game 4+ hours a day. Not for an adult, and not for a kid. We are not all streamers and streamers don't understand what it's like to have a real life and play just for fun.

I am someone who plays every league but due to family commitments I just can't play for the amount of time needed to access top tier.

And I have no interest in playing a game for leisure where I can't access the top tier.

I will need to consider if I continue playing after harvest, it will depend on the new things coming in, but as it stands now I think your logic is off and out of touch with the majority of people playing.

Edit: spelling mistake only

Then play standard where you have all the time in the world. People with limited time due to whatever their problems are, shouldn't be catered to when it means damaging the game.

Its not damaging the game. Its making it better. There is no perfect game. There is always room for improvement. Nobody wants things handed for free. But if you think toning down the crazy RNG infested over the top grind to be more damaging to the game than the current situation where only 10% of the player base sticks around after a month then you really don't know what damaging means.

Nobody is asking for a 180 degree turn on the core concepts to the game. We are simply refining the way they are presented to make the game more interesting, which will make hopefully more people also stick around, and those that find the rng and grind too bad at the moment to also have more fun with the game.

It wont change a thing for the "hardcore" players. They will be back to complain the game is too easy anyway no matter what, as they always do, as they stick around each time copying online builds they never came up with on their own and cry that the game is broken. Half of which builds are mediocre btw if they are not broken and rely on 40 exalt items to be even any good, LOL,... which is hardly any actual playing after that point, its just repetitive grind to finally get said items, and the very point most normal human beings check out.

Simply make that grind time shorter. No need to make it instant and drop 30 exalts from the sky the moment you kill Kitava.

And btw, many of us of this notion have been here all along since the start of PoE... Ruining/damaging the game? Well, that is a bold and subjective claim. I could say people like you are doing the same.

And ps, why don't you got play SSF-H if the game is too easy to get items and we are ruining it?

Playing standard does not change the fact that the current crafting system is too tedious and grindy. its a nice system, but far from perfect and needs to be expanded on. That is all.

Just for the record, I enjoyed Harvest and really like the idea of deterministic crafting.

I didn't play much this season but that was due to RL stuff - it would be nice if this idea does make a comeback in core at some later time, when you work out how to do it right.