3.11 | Carry Me Golems | Carrion/Stone Golem Elementalist | Very Tanky and High DPS summoner

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jsuslak313 wrote:

unfortunately i dont have my 4th lab yet.........so i can't test it myself. But it really is a gamechanger. Either you are completely wasting half your ascendancy on points that do nothing, or you are missing out on a HUGE dps boost.

I still believe that the wiki is inaccurate, otherwise chill and shock should have the same descriptions, and if we go by the literal words of the skill itself you still need to be able to apply the shock at which point the Beacon of Ruin raises that shock value if its under 15%. There is no wording to the skill that says that your damage will shock no matter what

I'm pretty sure there are skills or items with those exact words: your attacks have 100% chance to shock, or 50% chance to shock etc

**yea for example: look at the arc skill. There is wording for shock effect, %chance to shock, and regular lightning damage. BoR only has wording for shock effect and minimum shock amount, but not shock chance

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jsuslak313 wrote:

nonono scrambled, ur falling into the trap again...

it raises the shock AMOUNT, not the threshold. Meaning that if you deal enough damage to apply 5% shock it will instead apply a 15% shock. It doesn't mean that you need to apply a lot more damage to even start the shock when you take BoR.

For other elementalist builds, this is especially good on bosses, that generally require millions of damage to apply the MINIMUM shock value.

Yes its true if you regularly apply higher than 15% shock value, then only the 30% increased effect of shock is useful in the node.

It's not an either before/after scenario, its simply an increase in minimum shock amount. But if you aren't applying shocks to begin with, this does not help you apply shocks unless ur dealing lots of another element or physical damage at which point confluxes help you apply shocks.

As minion builds, we basically do zero damage ourselves and all damage comes from minions so we don't deal enough of ANY kind of damage to apply shocks.

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scrambled777 wrote:

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jsuslak313 wrote:

nonono scrambled, ur falling into the trap again...

it raises the shock AMOUNT, not the threshold. Meaning that if you deal enough damage to apply 5% shock it will instead apply a 15% shock. It doesn't mean that you need to apply a lot more damage to even start the shock when you take BoR.

For other elementalist builds, this is especially good on bosses, that generally require millions of damage to apply the MINIMUM shock value.

Yes its true if you regularly apply higher than 15% shock value, then only the 30% increased effect of shock is useful in the node.

It's not an either before/after scenario, its simply an increase in minimum shock amount. But if you aren't applying shocks to begin with, this does not help you apply shocks unless ur dealing lots of another element or physical damage at which point confluxes help you apply shocks.

As minion builds, we basically do zero damage ourselves and all damage comes from minions so we don't deal enough of ANY kind of damage to apply shocks.

No I get your interpretation of how it should work, I'm just saying it makes more sense from a balance perspective to have it the other way. Regardless of how it actually works at the moment.

I disagree with you about before/after though. I think it is a before/after scenario because our shocks can proc from % chance to shock if we don't do crits. Elementalist ascendancy gives us 10% chance to shock just by pathing to Beacon of Ruin. This is independent of whether we do crits. If we crit, that crit is 100% chance to shock regardless of our actual chance to shock. I'm not sure if you're accounting for our base chance to shock?

This means that there's two possible ways Beacon of Ruin can work if we assume a 10% chance to shock. I'm not saying which of the two is correct because I honestly don't know for sure myself.

First possible way Beacon of Ruin can work is:

1) We hit with non-crit lightning damage
2) Successfully roll the 10% chance to shock
3) Calculate effect of shock based off lightning damage of the hit and enemy ailment threshold
4) Apply Beacon of Ruin
5) Shock effect is less than 1% due to our very low lightning damage, so raise it to 15% through Beacon of Ruin
6) Check if the shock should be discarded
7) Shock effect is 15% so it is high enough to pass the minimum threshold.
8) Shock is then applied to the enemy.

If this is how Beacon of Ruin works, it's a big DPS increase for the golem build


The other way Beacon of Ruin can work (which is probably how you interpret it) is if you swap the order of Steps 4 and 6:

1) We hit with non-crit lightning damage
2) Successfully roll the 10% chance to shock
3) Calculate effect of shock based off lightning damage of the hit and enemy ailment threshold
4) Check if the shock should be discarded
5) Shock effect is less than 1% due to our very low lightning damage, so it is NOT high enough to pass the minimum threshold.
6) Shock effect is discarded and not applied to the enemy.
7) Apply Beacon of Ruin - this doesn't happen because shock effect was already discarded

If this is how Beacon of Ruin works, it does nothing for the golem build because as you pointed out Beacon of Ruin does not have the chance to raise shock effect before the discard threshold check is run.

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reciprocate wrote:

The first way is what I hope it to be. And I generally want to believe it to be true as well. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter making the any potential shocks we inflict with such little damage be rather worthless and automatically discarded making BoR irrelevant.

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scrambled777 wrote:

With some cast speed modifiers, you can get Storm Brand activation frequency to around 0.4 seconds which is 2.5 hits per second. With 10% chance to shock, that's an average of shock being applied once every 4 seconds.

Assuming no ailment duration increase, that's averaging 50% uptime. It is worse if you're relying on confluxes as a CIP build, one way to improve this is to run a Megalomaniac with Cold Conduction. This will allow Chill Conflux to apply shock too, so you're only really unable to apply shock when under Ignite Conflux.

FWIW, I played this build with CIP's all the way to level 100 in Delirium and I never actually bothered going the Beacon of Ruin route in the end. Damage was already more than enough and I didn't want to give up my defences.

However, if you're running wands/staff instead of CIP, then I think it might actually be worth if you're not relying on confluxes.

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reciprocate wrote:

The first way is what I hope it to be. And I generally want to believe it to be true as well. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter making the any potential shocks we inflict with such little damage be rather worthless and automatically discarded making BoR irrelevant.

Yes that's why I made the comment that it makes much more sense for the first way to be true. Because the second way would make Beacon of Ruin nigh on useless unless our damage is ridiculously high. Compare that to Necromancer's Corpse Pact which auto-applies 15% shock effect automatically just by summoning a corpse...