[3.10] Gryph's Volatile Dead Necromancer || Fun, Medium Budget, Tanky, Millions of DPS

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Rootsmann wrote:

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Gryphenprey wrote:

Inspiration Support is what I used last league. They nerfed the gem and buffed monster resists making Awakened Fire much more appealing and more damage. Would not use Inspiration anymore.

Is PoB not up to date regarding monster resistances?

I looked at shaper DPS numbers and compared Inspiration to all other relevant dps gems and Inspiration came as the strongest choice.

Disclaimer: I understand that with AL8 and nasty map mods the regular monsters will have higher fire resistance than shaper. So I'll redo the test with even higher monster resistances.

A few weeks ago you posted in the comments your "current" (I used it as a reference point until I got better gears), and in that PoB you did not check fire exposure from wave of conviction. To that I added elemental weakness and one more elemntal penetration node from my tree. So maybe all that additional penetration from my setup compared to yours is the reason why Awakened Fire Penetration doesn't overtake Inspiration while it does for you.

I really encourage anybody looking for the right gem setup to do his own testing because min/maxing is a really nonlinear process and that small node that you choose to not take may change the validity of another choice.

Ahh! OOPS! Also yes, the more Pen you have elsewhere the less effective the gem becomes as it gives diminishing returns.

Worth noting, I was neither using Wise Oak (15%) nor Martyr (15%) at the time. I also was not using a -res curse but chose to go with enfeeble. You can also get 15% fire pen from a Watcher's Eye. Once you get enough of it the support gem stops being as good and should be replaced with something else. Awakened Controlled Destruction should be a big boost provided you have really high crit chance already. My next choice would be Inspiration after that.

So I got home in between and did the new tests. The previous ones where 2 weeks old with worst gears.

Now Awakened Controlled destruction takes over Inspiration for me. But what I was more interested to test is how sensitive is the Awakened Fire Penetration gem benefit as a function of the general fire penetration values your character has and how much fire res the monsters have. And it is extremelly sensitive. A 20% res or pen change and the which gems is best changes.

I won't provide the tresholds here as it is too character dependent, but friends, just add the gems in your pob and test for yourself, it is worth it!

the only thing i dont like that i burn through my mana so quick.

i gone behind another guide before where i could perma cyclone without getting out of mana.

can someone check my profile and maybe tell me why?

thanks.

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Benschi wrote:

the only thing i dont like that i burn through my mana so quick.

i gone behind another guide before where i could perma cyclone without getting out of mana.

can someone check my profile and maybe tell me why?

thanks.

I think your profile is currently set to private.

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Benschi wrote:

the only thing i dont like that i burn through my mana so quick.

i gone behind another guide before where i could perma cyclone without getting out of mana.

can someone check my profile and maybe tell me why?

thanks.

You profile is privitate we can't see it.

You burn your mana because cyclone cost 50+ mana due to Doedre's gloves. That is why "% of damage gained as mana over 4 seconds" mods (from jewellery or watcher's eye clarity mod) are necessary.

Other topic, for Gryph:
From the main page:

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xHavoCx wrote:
Here is a calculator that helps you figure out your ideal attack per second range based on your mana cost and physical damage mitigation.

Put this together because I got tired of doing the calculations by hand for every little adjustment... add a few hundred armor and it can blow up your carefully balanced machine.

For min-maxers mostly. Enjoy.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cmmxBbwYPm4RXDyUJAm4r4a5WVn9dKQQ63_BMQgnpYw/edit?usp=sharing

So, to me, this google doc calculation is completly off.



The actual minimum aps goal that matters is the one that allows your VD and Offering to always be cast on cooldown. For that you must take into account the number of corpse you generate (Unearth on top of Desecrate?), and the number of corpses you consume (How many offerings, cascade on VD?), on top of the parameters already taken into account in the doc (cyclone mana cost, CWDT damage treshold, phys mitigation, CDR, etc..).

For example, I run the number for my setup:


Putting my stats in equations gives me 3.89 attacks per second as the sweet spot.


With my stats, having less than 3.89 aps will imply that the VD cast of the 4th CWC proc has no corpse to use, and the next offering will have nothing to consume. So it's both damage and recovery that suffer. Having more aps will just generate more corpses. Indeed, since CwC will proc according to it's own internal cooldown, being above the minimum aps treshold and therefore being out of of sync between CwC and CWDT won't matter. It's a different case compared to CoC where the procs are set by your attacks. Here the VD just triggers on CWC cooldown while the corpse generation cycle is faster than necessary.

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Rootsmann wrote:

Other topic, for Gryph:
From the main page:

"

xHavoCx wrote:
Here is a calculator that helps you figure out your ideal attack per second range based on your mana cost and physical damage mitigation.

Put this together because I got tired of doing the calculations by hand for every little adjustment... add a few hundred armor and it can blow up your carefully balanced machine.

For min-maxers mostly. Enjoy.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cmmxBbwYPm4RXDyUJAm4r4a5WVn9dKQQ63_BMQgnpYw/edit?usp=sharing

So, to me, this google doc calculation is completly off.

Spoiler

The max aps goal correspond to the sweet spot for the maximum number of CWDT triggers per amount of damage taken while cycloning. Cool, having more or less than this sweet spot is bad. But having less is not as bad as having more. Anyway none of us will ever reach this sweet spot, it's far too high.

The minimum aps goal has no use at all, though. It's just the aps necessary to synchronize your CwC procs with your CWDT procs IF there was no cooldown of CWDT. In other words, it synchronize our number of attacks necessary to trigger a CWDT with your CwC proc as if the CWDT were off cooldown. That has no use whatsoever. It's probably a notion taken from the needs of synchronisation for CoC procs, but CwC does not have such necessities, as I'll comment on the conclusion of this post.

The actual minimum aps goal that matters is the one that allows your VD and Offering to always be cast on cooldown. For that you must take into account the number of corpse you generate (Unearth on top of Desecrate?), and the number of corpses you consume (How many offerings, cascade on VD?), on top of the parameters already taken into account in the doc (cyclone mana cost, CWDT damage treshold, phys mitigation, CDR, etc..).

For example, I run the number for my setup:

Spoiler

Corpse generation: Desecrate + cascade = 10 corpse limit per CWDT trigger
Corpse Consumption: 1 Offering, 3 corpse per CwC from VD.
Cyclone mana cost = 56
CwC cooldown = 0.34
CwdT damage treshold = 528.
Mitigation : 3 endurance charge, 0 armor.

For 1 CWDT trigger I have 10 corpses, minus one that is eaten by the offering. I am left with 9 corpses per CWDT cycles.
A CWDT cycle duration is (250+x) milliseconds, where x is the time needed to accumulate 528 phys damages after mitigation.

These 9 corpses can be used for 3 VD cast so 3 CwC procs.

Putting my stats in equations gives me 3.89 attacks per second as the sweet spot.

Spoiler

The equation is : (Attacks to trigger CWDT)/((3 CwC cycles*0.34 s)-0.25 s).
The google doc gives 8.8 aps as the minimum goal with my parameters. I recall that this minimum from the doc is meaningless, but may push people to go for crazy aps for nothing

With my stats, having less than 3.89 aps will imply that the VD cast of the 4th CWC proc has no corpse to use, and the next offering will have nothing to consume. So it's both damage and recovery that suffer. Having more aps will just generate more corpses. Indeed, since CwC will proc according to it's own internal cooldown, being above the minimum aps treshold and therefore being out of of sync between CwC and CWDT won't matter. It's a different case compared to CoC where the procs are set by your attacks. Here the VD just triggers on CWC cooldown while the corpse generation cycle is faster than necessary.

Need to make a concise point at the end of all that. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say exactly. But I'ma try.

The calculator is going to be off for the following reason:

It does not take into account the 250ms Cooldown of CWDT trigger during which time no damage taken is counted towards your next trigger. This is also why so many people struggle to maintain their ES despite recovering close to 1k es per offering proc and only needing 528 to trigger CWDT.

Regarding the recovery side of things as I'm sure others will find this information/explanation useful:
Let's say you have 12 APS (after ramping up) and 56 mana cost with 12% phys reduction (Charging Offensive 3 endurance charges). With Scold's you take 197 damage per attack. This requires 3 spins to trigger CWDT and then during 250ms cooldown you attack 3 additional times taking 591 damage that is not counted towards the next CWDT trigger for a total of 1182 damage that is needed to be recovered off of Spirit Offering in order to break even.

It's actually pretty close to impossible to be on CWDT cooldown with Cyclone. Increased Cooldown Recovery Speed can help with recovery by reducing the time in which we take damage before CWDT starts counting again though, so that's possibly worth looking into.

I don't do well with calculating EXACTLY every little minute detail. I mostly operate on a lot of trial and error and then look back and see why something does or does not work.

I'll ask xHavoCx to review the calculator with the new information. Also anyone can make a copy of the file and adjust it accordingly.

@Gryphenprey

I might have missed it somewhere in the thread... but how did you get your staff (CwC with +3 fire gems). The rest I can figure out. (and yeah, I see you tried an awakened staff with shaper + elder... interesting, just not sure the extra pool of mods makes it easier, though some of them are attractive.)

Tried chaos spam, and got +3 fire gems 2x and +3 chaos gems once but without CwC.

Tried fossil (metallic + jagged + aetheric + scortched) and was able to get the below.. Not perfect, but seems decent enough, though I loose a link to CwC.



Is there a better method? or just /pray more? ;)

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toxic678 wrote:

@Gryphenprey

I might have missed it somewhere in the thread... but how did you get your staff (CwC with +3 fire gems). The rest I can figure out. (and yeah, I see you tried an awakened staff with shaper + elder... interesting, just not sure the extra pool of mods makes it easier, though some of them are attractive.)

Tried chaos spam, and got +3 fire gems 2x and +3 chaos gems once but without CwC.

Tried fossil (metallic + jagged + aetheric + scortched) and was able to get the below.. Not perfect, but seems decent enough, though I loose a link to CwC.

Is there a better method? or just /pray more? ;)

The base I had was a flop that I alt spammed out of boredom. Hit +3 Fire and Shaper Spell Crit.

basically from there you Imprint+Regal and use Beasts to "Add Prefix/remove suffix" and "remove prefix/add suffix" until it's bricked (lose the +3 fire basically). And then go back to the imprint and start over. Worth noting, I would also use the "Cannot Roll Attack Mods" in the process with the beasts when adding a prefix mod.



This is my little side project that I may or may not finish at some point.

oh yeah.. Beast crafting. Always forget about that one. Though iirc, the imprint beast is fairly pricey. The rest aren't so bad.

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toxic678 wrote:

oh yeah.. Beast crafting. Always forget about that one. Though iirc, the imprint beast is fairly pricey. The rest aren't so bad.

Well, since CwC +3 fire staves seem to go for over 70 ex (last time I looked) it's not surprising they're hard to make.