[3.20] Ice Dancing Queen - Icestorm/Cyclone/CI - Viable For Everything

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Graiaule wrote:

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LiNGeN wrote:

Just tested this to Act 5, it works well. Although you'd have to drop something out of the Spellslinger such as Wintertide Brand because of the new 30% mana reservation override.

No, because Wintertide Brand doesn't reserve any mana. If I am doing the math correctly, the total reserved is (1.4*1.3 + 1.3)*.3 = 94% (rounded.) Whether that's enough mana to chain cast power siphon is TBD.

The number of alt orbs needed is annoying. Just means opening most of the chests you come across.

You will need a level ~13 (for .27) SPELLSLINGER, and add FORK SUPPORT to CREEPING FROST, if you still can't find a WI at that point. Your mana reservation will be 99% so you may need to keep your POWER SIPHON level low. It's probably best just to not bother with FORK.

Please refer back to the original post on page 415 -- I'll be correcting that list as I find more errors in it.

Any spell that is supported by Spellslinger gets override reservation of 30% (just like if it was an aura with 30% mana reserved). Wintertide Brand is, so it also gets 30%.

For anyone who got rickrolled by GGG after having predownloaded the torrent but got stuck in a download loop of the new .ggpk file all over again. There now is finally a workaround: https://twitter.com/pathofexile/status/1307026964822151168

Inb4 I see place 6 million in queue :).

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Kelvynn wrote:

While waiting, can somebody explain the Wave of Conviction usage? It deals Physical, Fire and Lightning damage and applies exposure (-25% resist) to the element that ends up dealing the highest damage. How does this help us? Or will it work with Herald of Ice that adds more flat cold than the fire/lightning from WoC itself?

If you use Hatred that alone is more than enough to convert the base physical spell damage into the dominant cold damage, thus applying cold exposure.

There's also a new alternate quality WoC with cold damage.

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Cjin wrote:

From what I understod, 96th shard is not going to owerwrite the 1st shard but 6th storm is going to owerwrite the 1st storm. so you are going to get 5 shards per 0.2sec. This means 95 shards per 3.8sec, no matter what the actual duration of storm is as long as you keep refreshing storms so that you have 5 on all the time. Longer duration just means old storms will linger longer if you do other stuff than new storms.

I get it now. I now realize that +duration is completely ineffectual. I just had to do the math to see it.


Here are 2 example scenarios based off 150k average hit (the average hit listed in PoB), along with ~2,800 int (which is ~3.8s storm duration after patch):

No added duration
3.8s storm duration.

3.8 / 0.2 = 19 ice shards * 5 storms limit = 95 total shards (before they begin overwriting each other) / 3.8s = 25 shards per second * 150k average shard hit = 3.75M DPS


Now with Potency of Will and Exceptional Performance
3.8 * 1.90 = 7.2s storm duration.

7.2 / 0.2 = 36 ice shards * 5 storm limit = 180 total shards (before they begin overwriting each other) / 7.2s = 25 shards per second * 150k average shard hit = 3.75M DPS


There's no difference in DPS due to adding duration and making storms last longer before they begin overwriting each other.



Basically, if you want to know your ice storm DPS, you take your PoB average hit * 25, and that's it, period. The formula is literally as simple as that.

Additional duration doesn't add any more damage, nor does additional AoE radius.

All AoE radius would do is spread out your ice shards, which would very likely actually make them hit single-targets less often, which would effectively lower your single-target DPS.

BUT, it would help map clearing as a result of spreading out your ice shards without any -spell damage, making this much more effective than Spell Cascade (especially the Awakened increased AoE which actually does add damage).

But I would definitely not recommend Awakened AoE over something like Awakened Added Cold Damage or Awakened Cold Penetration. Awakened AoE is essentially the new Spell Cascade gem swap for map clearing. But get rid of it on bosses.


So aside from the usual int, increased cold dmg, added cold damage, and any possible More modifiers, there's not really anything major/new we can do to improve our ice shards. They are effectively nerfed by something like half or even 60% from these changes. Which is insane. I don't know WTF GGG is thinking.

I mean who in their right mind thinks WI needed a 60% damage nerf? Has anyone tried to bring this to GGG's attention? I honestly can't imagine they realize they hit us with a 60% damage nerf.



That all said, I still think adding an outside cold spell is going to be the ONLY way to get near our previous DPS.

I'm also certain Frostbolt + Frozen Trail + Vortex on the 6L is going to net much more DPS than simply adding Awakened Added Cold Damage to the staff.



In my setup, Awakened Added Cold Damage takes me from ~120,000 to ~150,000 average hit. With 15% more damage effectiveness, that only adds like 863,000 more DPS.


Meanwhile, Frostbolt + Frozen Trail (instead of A-Added Cold) is 180,000 per Frostbolt. So 10 * 180,000 = 1.8M DPS. However they are sometimes spread out or go in opposite directions, so they won't of course all hit a single-target, but for map clearing, the screen gets blanketed. (unless like Kelvynn said, you keep outrunning them because you're too fast)

And then there's 5 Vortexes exploding off frostbolts every second at ~300,000 DPS per Vortex. But these have a duration of 2.25s, so on single target after ~2 seconds their DoT's are stacking/overlapping. So that's 300k * 5 * 2.25 = 3.375M potential DPS.


So combined, that's 3.75M (ice storms) + 1.8M (frostbolts) + 3.375M (vortexes) = 8.925M DPS.

So that's the potential for me IF everything hit 100%... which isn't going to be the case, but this is still a rough illustration of potential combined overall DPS.

And, I could surely improve this a fair amount with cluster jewels and some gear upgrades. But as is, right now, I'm somewhere between 120k-150k on my ice shards, and if I do the frostbolt/vortex idea, in a round-about way, I can get back to my previous DPS range before the nerf.

But obviously with a much different looking set of damage output, and a fair amount of inconsistency due to frostbolt/vortex spread. But we already had inconsistency before since not all ice shard hit, too. So I really don't think that's a big issue.


I believe my DPS was something like this prior to this patch (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please).

5.7s storm duration with shards impacting every 0.1s.... Doesn't that equate to each storm dropping 57 ice shards with a limit of 5.7 storms? So isn't that 57 ice shards per second @ ~150,000 average hit each = 8.55M DPS?

So pretty close, no? Around 8.55M DPS pre-patch with just ice storm, and around 8.925M DPS post-patch with ice storm + frostbolt + vortex.

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Cjin wrote:

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ultra_super_hyper wrote:

My understanding is that we will be limited to to 5 storms in total irrespective of of how they are cast.

Yes, that is what patch notes say. Graiaule and SkylerOG have totally misunderstod how it works and that increased duration won't help with dps. Unöess you are slow at refreshing storms.

Yeah I figured this out. Just had to do the math to see. Thanks for the heads up, though.

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LiNGeN wrote:

Any spell that is supported by Spellslinger gets override reservation of 30% (just like if it was an aura with 30% mana reserved). Wintertide Brand is, so it also gets 30%.

Huh. Okay, that's a surprise to me. The skill gem text says "This Skill's Mana Reservation is the total of the Mana Reservations of Supported Skills, and cannot be further modified"

If you are right, then SPELLSLINGER - WINTERTIDE - COLD SNAP - CONTROLLED DESTR all by itself would reserve (1.3*1.3*1.3)*.3 or 66% mana. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. We'll find out soon enough for sure.

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Okay, the actual function is (number of non-support gems)*(product of all of the mana multipliers of support gems.) So LiNGeN is correct in that I cannot use both WINTERTIDE and COLD SNAP and have enough left over for a second spellslinger. I've fixed my page 415 guide.

I'm not sure it's any better than just doing freezing pulse or mines. Cold Snap is a nice fire and forget that wipes out trash quickly, but creeping frost kind of sucks at single target dps. Maybe I should replace VOLLEY with something else?

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SkylerOG wrote:

Basically, if you want to know your ice storm DPS, you take your PoB average hit * 25, and that's it, period. The formula is literally as simple as that.

I didn't read your entire post as I'm too hyped to focus on all of it, but no its not that simple. I don't understand your calculation of the duration.

If you would be selfcasting, and if you do it in "5 cast cycles", you would do more damage with a longer duration.

However, if you channel it, or selfcast really fast 6 times or more, what you are then limited by is the total cast speed * 5. Within that time are the amount of iceshards you want to calculate.

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SkylerOG wrote:

I mean who in their right mind thinks WI needed a 60% damage nerf? Has anyone tried to bring this to GGG's attention? I honestly can't imagine they realize they hit us with a 60% damage nerf.

Yep, I wrote about this before. Take for example this quote from GGG in the Balance Manifesto:

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As with every league, we are making some changes to a few key mechanics that outclass alternatives or provide too much power with too little investment.

Does Whispering Ice provide too much power with too little investment? I'll let you answer that!

It's also quite ridicolous when looking at the numbers of Firestorm, where

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The base power of the spell has been significantly raised

when in fact it also has half as many fireball impacts and even less damage increased. It also seems to keep its old AoE. So with true DPS it deals less damage than before and is limited to 3 storms. The initial hit may be the only interesting thing but is probably weaker than most other options available like Fireball for instance.

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Kelvynn wrote:

I just tried this. The major weak point in this setup is Bane. It's 0.46 sec cast. Having to stop to cast it all the time feels super clunky.

With The Stampede, I keep outrunning the Frostbolts making them irrelevant. I get to a monster pack ahead of me, and my Icestorm already does all the damage before the Frostbolts reach it.

Another issue is a big drop in safety. Automatic CWDT curses are wonderful.

The damage from the constant Frostbolt and Vortex spam is not that great compared to Icestorm. Replacing Frostbolt with Inc AoE actually increased my clear speed. However, this is still without the 5 storm limit.

And against bosses this whole setup was noticeably worse than the classic. You can swap the staff, but you can't swap the curse and vortex links.

I actually am not minding using Bane to apply the curses. That .46s is barely a hickup to cyclone, and it's actually kind of nice having targettable curses on demand rather than having to rely on being hit. I basically get to apply them at the start of boss fights, which actually means more damage sooner, along with enfeeble on sooner, too. And the duration is ~13 seconds, so it's not like you have to repeatedly cast it during boss fights.


As for the frostbolt/vortex situation, I just don't see any other way to supplement our DPS.

+15% added damage effectiveness sure as hell isn't going to replace a 57% damage nerf.


Again, my DPS is going from around 8.55M to around 3.75M on just ice storm. And everyone elses is going to be losing a similar 57%, including you.

So if you can figure out another way to make up that difference that doesn't involve frostbolt/vortex, I'm all ears and would welcome it, of course. You're the respected thread expert.

I'm still thinking that this rework was 100% about performance. Before the 3.12 patch, and after the last performance patch, I could crash my client 100% of the time (on Vulken) just by spinning in place for 10 seconds. This is after playing it that way all league. Whatever change they made made the Vulken client way more fragile in terms of Icestorm.

Lol everyone relaxxx, we are about to test it first hand and see where we are starting from.

34,000 people in the queue ahead of me.

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Breken wrote:

I'm still thinking that this rework was 100% about performance. Before the 3.12 patch, and after the last performance patch, I could crash my client 100% of the time (on Vulken) just by spinning in place for 10 seconds. This is after playing it that way all league. Whatever change they made made the Vulken client way more fragile in terms of Icestorm.

Maybe it's just helping the people with shitty pc's?

I had no issues with client crashes using ice storm or ever dropping below 50 fps on dx11.