[3.21] Vatinas' Spiders + HoP Guardian - CI, 70K armour, 1400 ES on block, millions of DPS

Hi again, I have already vouched here in this thread for both Vatinas’ builds (HoP is slightly better), but I have been trying to min-max it as much as possible and I think I am getting there now. Stats really are incredible - 10k+ ES, almost 64k armour, resistances at 76/81/76; and I have tried Enemy Crit Extra Damage Reduction (-100%+) for even smoother gameplay. All content is doable with most of it being extremely easy (Warlords, Sirus, Elder, Uber Elder, Shaper, HoGM, everything...)
I like corruptions so I have implemented some of those (but as you can see I am too afraid to corrupt my Memory Vault for extra increased ES :)).

I also think it can be an easy league starter (I have played this build only during Delirium)... Yes, the end-game gear might be expensive, but you do not have to go that way - you can create your own Shav (cards+jew+fusings), enchant your own helmet (twice enchanted prophecy), and the essential items are not that expensive when buying low rolls and divine orbing them to perfection...

Here’s my current gear, I would love to get double corruption on most of the items, but it takes a lot of time and I can play only few hours a night (and trading while working :) )...
Cheers!
Here’s my current gear:

I think this

"The Circle of Fear, Nostalgia, Regret, Anguish and Guilt Unique rings that affected Heralds now give lower values of Reservation Cost reduction and lower values of Buff Effect. These rings provided too much power and were too obvious a choice for so many builds."

Is going to complicate a lot the build...... probably more investment in corrupted with RMR .....

"

Kemmotar1 wrote:

I think this

"The Circle of Fear, Nostalgia, Regret, Anguish and Guilt Unique rings that affected Heralds now give lower values of Reservation Cost reduction and lower values of Buff Effect. These rings provided too much power and were too obvious a choice for so many builds."

Is going to complicate a lot the build...... probably more investment in corrupted with RMR .....

Not a lot of us were running two rings, will be interesting to see how much they nerf it, Herald of Agony might be better than Purity again.

The ring nerf is going to make things interesting. I am also a bit concerned about losing the poison immunity from pantheon. Anecdotally I tried this build out mid 3.10 and was having a blast but found I was getting killed very quickly at really random times. Turns out I was spinning through poison that I could not see due to mist from del. Once I added the poison immunity I was feeling pretty unkillable again. Just thinking that losing stun immunity while spinning, lack of defense from poison, and probably losing freeze immunity (dropping dream fragments for another nostalgia) is going to drop the survivability quite a bit. Which sucks because its my favorite part of the build. Actually did my first HC char with this one last league. I am interested in seeing what people come up with for this build. Easily my favorite thing to play even after trying 200ex herald stacking at end of league.

"

livejamie wrote:

"

Kemmotar1 wrote:

I think this

"The Circle of Fear, Nostalgia, Regret, Anguish and Guilt Unique rings that affected Heralds now give lower values of Reservation Cost reduction and lower values of Buff Effect. These rings provided too much power and were too obvious a choice for so many builds."

Is going to complicate a lot the build...... probably more investment in corrupted with RMR .....

Not a lot of us were running two rings, will be interesting to see how much they nerf it, Herald of Agony might be better than Purity again.

The randomly generated Herald Modifiers now grant 15-20% reduced Reservation Cost of their respective Heralds (from 30-40%), and 40-60% increased Buff Effect of their respective Heralds (from 70-100%).


Oof

"

Disc0rdantMel0dy wrote:

The ring nerf is going to make things interesting. I am also a bit concerned about losing the poison immunity from pantheon. Anecdotally I tried this build out mid 3.10 and was having a blast but found I was getting killed very quickly at really random times. Turns out I was spinning through poison that I could not see due to mist from del. Once I added the poison immunity I was feeling pretty unkillable again. Just thinking that losing stun immunity while spinning, lack of defense from poison, and probably losing freeze immunity (dropping dream fragments for another nostalgia) is going to drop the survivability quite a bit. Which sucks because its my favorite part of the build. Actually did my first HC char with this one last league. I am interested in seeing what people come up with for this build. Easily my favorite thing to play even after trying 200ex herald stacking at end of league.

Droping Dream Fragments is going to cost more than the Freeze inmunity, it means that we need to alocate the Cold REsistance somewhere else too.... sacrifying another part... Still trying to play around it... I really want to try the HoP version :P

Herald of Purity got dumpstered by Cult-Leader and Pure Agony changes. Pretty confident that Herald of Agony will be the better version this league.

Hi all :)

I just read the patch notes. While it's true, like you pointed out, that there are some new issues, I believe the build will be alive and well.

1) Good news first: Glancing Blows is now in the skill tree, and right next to Sanctuary, which we already take. That means that we don't need Lethal Pride any more, and that we gain a jewel socket near Mind over Matter. For instance, Fortress Covenant grants around 7% more damage, which is huge, without any notable in the radius to have any downside. Also, the new Rallying Cry should be really strong with our build; I haven't yet done the math to figure out exactly how much damage we'll gain, but it should be at the very least decent.

2) Cyclone lost its stun immunity, but Unwavering Stance was moved and is now 3 skill points away from the tree, so it's now an option to avoid stuns. Another option is Soul of the Brine kind, which, when upgraded, will also allow us to partially mitigate freezes and massively reduce the effect of chill (more on that in point X).

3) Herald of Purity was nerfed indirectly, which means it's not so massively better than Herald of Agony any more. I compared both setups, and they end up having the same damage at 40 virulence, with HoA being a bit above at 45. However, like I said in the guide, we have to remember that PoB dps is not always real dps, and that we most likely won't always be at 45 (or even 40) virulence, especially in boss fights where we sometimes have to move. Also, in order to stack virulence reliably, we need to take Resolute Technique, which means 2 extra skill points that HoP doesn't need. Furthermore, skipping Pure Agony for HoP means we can invest in Invigorating Portents, for a bit more minion movement speed, which not only improves clear speed and quality of life, but also can improve effective dps versus mobile bosses like the Hunter by reducing the time minions spend running around. All in all, I think HoP and HoA both have their advantages, and I don't think either is clearly better than the other, so it's up to your personal preference.

4) The circles of nostalgia/guilt have had their reduced mana reservation halved. Yeah, that sucks. I played around a lot with gems, and didn't really find another gem setup to fit the new mana reservation without losing massive damage, which means that we have two options.
a) We drop aspect of the spider.
b) We replace Dream Fragments with another circle ring.
Both options have their pros and cons. a) is clearly cheaper, since it requires no aspect craft and only one circle, and makes us completely immune to freeze and chills, allowing us to use Soul of Arakaali for extra defense against chaos damage. b) is more expensive, but allows us to keep Aspect of the Spider, which grants a lot of damage. Also, the circle rings have other interesting stats - sentinel/crawler damage, and armour/chaos res, so taking a second one will work wonders. This will most likely be the best option once you have the money for it.

5) We will lose a bit of ES, since Arcane Will's mana as extra ES got reduced from 4% to 3%, but it's not a massive loss.




And I think that's it. It's still to early to say what will be the best, but here's how I think I will proceed:

Start the league as before, with a Dream Fragments and a rare ring, with a 5L herald. Most likely socket Unwavering Stance, and use Soul of Arakaali. Once I have the currency, I will get a 6L Shav's and a circle ring to use instead of the rare ring. Once I have more currency, I will buy a second circle ring and craft the apect on my belt, and use Soul of the Brine King for chill and freeze reduction. I will try to remove Unwavering Stance and see if getting stunned every 4 seconds is too much of a pain and a risk or not.
As for the Herald I'll use, I'll start with HoP since we get it as quest reward and we'll have the attributes needed easily, then when I can afford an Astramentis, I will start using HoA again. I will use Resolute Technique until I have Shaper's Touch, and then see if I can reliably stack virulence. Another option is to anoint an accuracy notable and see if it's enough; some options are:
Weathered Hunter for a lot of accuracy and a bit of resists
Flaying, for less accuracy but more attack speed and strike range for cyclone
Utmost Intellect which grants accuracy through Shaper's Touch, as well as mana and ES through intelligence's natural effect.



Let me know what you all think! The league starter guide will come shortly. :)

"

Vatinas wrote:

Hi all :)

I just read the patch notes. While it's true, like you pointed out, that there are some new issues, I believe the build will be alive and well.

1) Good news first: Glancing Blows is now in the skill tree, and right next to Sanctuary, which we already take. That means that we don't need Lethal Pride any more, and that we gain a jewel socket near Mind over Matter. For instance, Fortress Covenant grants around 7% more damage, which is huge, without any notable in the radius to have any downside.

2) Cyclone lost its stun immunity, but Unwavering Stance was moved and is now 3 skill points away from the tree, so it's now an option to avoid stuns. Another option is Soul of the Brine kind, which, when upgraded, will also allow us to partially mitigate freezes and massively reduce the effect of chill (more on that in point X).

3) Herald of Purity was nerfed indirectly, which means it's not so massively better than Herald of Agony any more. I compared both setups, and they end up having the same damage at 40 virulence, with HoA being a bit above at 45. However, like I said in the guide, we have to remember that PoB dps is not always real dps, and that we most likely won't always be at 45 (or even 40) virulence, especially in boss fights where we sometimes have to move. Also, in order to stack virulence reliably, we need to take Resolute Technique, which means 2 extra skill points that HoP doesn't need. Furthermore, skipping Pure Agony for HoP means we can invest in Invigorating Portents, for a bit more minion movement speed, which not only improves clear speed and quality of life, but also can improve effective dps versus mobile bosses like the Hunter by reducing the time minions spend running around. All in all, I think HoP and HoA both have their advantages, and I don't think either is clearly better than the other, so it's up to your personal preference.

4) The circles of nostalgia/guilt have had their reduced mana reservation halved. Yeah, that sucks. I played around a lot with gems, and didn't really find another gem setup to fit the new mana reservation without losing massive damage, which means that we have two options.
a) We drop aspect of the spider.
b) We replace Dream Fragments with another circle ring.
Both options have their pros and cons. a) is clearly cheaper, since it requires no aspect craft and only one circle, and makes us completely immune to freeze and chills, allowing us to use Soul of Arakaali for extra defense against chaos damage. b) is more expensive, but allows us to keep Aspect of the Spider, which grants a lot of damage. Also, the circle rings have other interesting stats - sentinel/crawler damage, and armour/chaos res, so taking a second one will work wonders. This will most likely be the best option once you have the money for it.

5) We will lose a bit of ES, since Arcane Will's mana as extra ES got reduced from 4% to 3%, but it's not a massive loss.




And I think that's it. It's still to early to say what will be the best, but here's how I think I will proceed:

Start the league as before, with a Dream Fragments and a rare ring, with a 5L herald. Most likely socket Unwavering Stance, and use Soul of Arakaali. Once I have the currency, I will get a 6L Shav's and a circle ring to use instead of the rare ring. Once I have more currency, I will buy a second circle ring and craft the apect on my belt, and use Soul of the Brine King for chill and freeze reduction. I will try to remove Unwavering Stance and see if getting stunned every 4 seconds is too much of a pain and a risk or not.
As for the Herald I'll use, I'll start with HoP since we get it as quest reward and we'll have the attributes needed easily, then when I can afford an Astramentis, I will start using HoA again. I will use Resolute Technique until I have Shaper's Touch, and then see if I can reliably stack virulence. Another option is to anoint an accuracy notable and see if it's enough; some options are:
Weathered Hunter for a lot of accuracy and a bit of resists
Flaying, for less accuracy but more attack speed and strike range for cyclone
Utmost Intellect which grants accuracy through Shaper's Touch, as well as mana and ES through intelligence's natural effect.



Let me know what you all think! The league starter guide will come shortly. :)

Thank you for the explanation. I really thought the HoP is dead for this build after the nerf.

Want to know your opinion on taking the Discord Artisan nodes for mana reservation.It's not that far from the current tree and those 3 nodes can amount to 20% reservation for herald.

"

cheeps69 wrote:

Thank you for the explanation. I really thought the HoP is dead for this build after the nerf.

Want to know your opinion on taking the Discord Artisan nodes for mana reservation.It's not that far from the current tree and those 3 nodes can amount to 20% reservation for herald.

I really don't think it's dead; just on a more equal footing with HoA. :)

I like Discord Artisan - and I think the fact they added those nodes is the reason why they nerfed the circle rings. However, it would require six skill points, which is a lot, and the only thing it would allow is the use of Aspect of the Spider with a Dream Fragments. In my opinion, it's not worth it, but if you want to go for it, go ahead :) I don't think it's a bad thing to take; just that it's not worth the skill point investment.

Also, one thing that I forgot to mention (I'll edit my post to add it): the new Rallying Cry is going to be really strong, I will most likely replace Increased Duration on Molten Shell + Spirit Offering with that. :)