Hatred

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visibiliti wrote:

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

Short example:
100 base physical damage
aura adds 20% of physical damage as cold
10% elemental damage increase
20% physical damage increase
15% cold damage increase

You get 100 physical damage increased by 10%, for 110 physical, and 20 cold damage (from physical) which is increased by 45% (10 + 20 + 15) for 29 cold damage.

For clarity, did you MEAN to say this:

You get 100 physical damage increased by 20%, for 120 physical, and 20 cold damage (from physical) which is increased by 45% (10 + 20 + 15) for 29 cold damage.

?

Yes, I got the physical damage increase wrong. Thanks for the catch - I've updated my post to be correct so as not to confuse others.

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visibiliti wrote:

Also, what is the logic for adding in the 20% damage increase to the cold damage portion of the equation just because (as you stated:)

"since it was 'converted' from physical damage, is affected by both physical and cold/elemental damage increases."

That seems very odd and counterintuitive considering you mentioned that you don't want the formulas to "double dip" on the multiplications they provide. In this example' the "20% physical damage increase" increased both the base physical damage and the base (20) cold damage. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

The amount of cold damage you get from hatred is based on how much physical damage you deal. As such, people expect that increasing the amount of physical damage you deal will increase the amount of cold damage. This is the intuitive conclusion we've found many people assume is true.

The cold damage you deal is cold damage, and thus clearly needs to be affected by cold damage increases. This is also very intuitive.

The "increased physical damage" and "increased cold damage" modifiers are additive. We can't first apply all the physical ones, then work out cold damage as a percentage of that, then apply cold damage increases, because then those two modifiers, which are always additive, become multiplicative with each other, which is completely broken.

The physical damage is just physical damage. It's affected by increased physical damage because it's physical. so it gets the 20% increase from that.

The cold damage is cold damage and thus affected by cold and elemental damage increases. This cold damage is based directly on the amount of physical damage you have, so it should also affected by modifiers to your physical damage - modifying physical damage should modify other damage which is based on the amount of physical damage. Hence it gets the 10% increase (elemental), the 15% increase (cold) and the 20% increase (physical), for a total of 45% increased damage. And this way, all these increases which are additive are applied together so that they are additive. Balance is maintained.


Many patches ago, it didn't work this way - the base elemental damage was converted/added as a percentage of base physical damage and then only modified by increases to it's new type - this turned out to be a very negative mechanic (Glacial Hammer did less damage than it would ave without the conversion of 50% to cold, because cold is harder to increase), and very unintuitive. We had players reporting as a bug that they increased their physical damage and the amount of other damage they got based on physical didn't change, when it clearly should.

I agreed, but we couldn't, as I noted above, increase for one and then later increase for the other because that makes additive increases into multiplicative, which would be completely imbalanced. So after some time thinking, I worked out the current system and after talking with Chris, here we are.

I appreciate that the base details of how it works can be a little tricky to understand, but the base intuitive assumption people draw - that if you're getting some percentage of your physical damage converted or added as another damage type, then modifying your physical damage should logically modify that damage as well, is maintained, and the fact that 'increases' modifiers are additive is also maintained. I'm reasonably confidant there's no better way to do that without sacrificing one of those two - we don't want to sacrifice the first, because before it makes the end result feel bad and unintuitive for players, and we absolutely can't sacrifice the second because it would destroy balance.