PvP in 3.3.0 and Beyond

Minimap in sarn change:

NOt sure if mentioned but being able to see names on minimap in sarn is a big problem for melee players VS ranged. Ranged players can just look at minimap names in sarn and offscreen players.
Why are names from players in other side of the arena visible?

Names should work like in 1 vs 1 aka at a certain distance you can t see players names.

Of course if you guys were to change proj distance so projectiles don t offscreen 3 screen away(hum hum magma/KB) then it would not be a problem.



-Plea for speed shrine change in sarn: favorising pathfinders and QOF players, the speed shrine is problematic. Just camp there, use offscreen to 1 shot anyone coming toward center, rush with shrine and KB. I feel either erase it orAdd traps on top of the hills so players can t camp there for too long.

Hey,
Glad to see fixes coming to PvP, there are still many of us who consider PvP as the best possible endgame of PoE.

There have been many good replies already, so I won't detail the same things again. I most agree with lapiz' post and would like to add a few important aspects to it:

Most problematic skills deal too high damage from multiple hits because the current PvP formula assumes only one hit per activation. The easy fix for this would be to assume a number of hits per activation for each skill and divide the T value by that. The flaw in this fix is that the assumption can't be correct at all times, the actual numbers would depend on other factors like number of projectiles or increased AoE greatly deviating the number of hits, if the assuption is too low the skill can be still abused by maximizing those secondary stats for more damage, if it's too high then the skill only works well if the thresholds are met.
The better fix would require an overhaul or an extension of the PvP scaling formula where the game would count hits dealt to the opponent and reduce the damage of subsequent hits if the time between the hits is shorter than the regular T value of the skill.

The other significant abusable mechanic is activation by triggers where the skills triggered use a T value different from the speed of the trigger source. As seen in patch notes you are already setting trap throwing speed as T value for traps, the same should be done for other triggers like Cast on crit, Cast while channeling, unique items triggering socketed gems / skills granted by the item basing the T value on the trigger rate. Sources without a fix trigger rate such as Cast when damage taken or Cast when stunned should not be affected by any cast speed scaling, and reduce damage based on the triggered skill's base T value, slower skills getting heavier reductions.

The above fixes would even out the power level difference between skills overall greatly reducing damage in PvP, but it is very important to implement them in correlation with severe defence nerfs to avoid immortal builds. On top of the many obvious items or passives already mentioned needing to be tuned down or turned off in PvP like Zerphi, infinite life flasks, Aegis, Xirgil etc, there are also generic mechanics that can't be directly targeted and possibly need to be tuned down or capped such as life regeneration and ES recharge.

I would like to point out that if you guys at GGG just balance actual skills and not those who will be released in future updates all of this will be useless.

You need to release skills with pvp balance and proper T value or in 6 month and 10 new skills later it will be all the same shit.

Think pvp ahead and the headaches will be way lower for your team.

after reading posts i lost all my hope about poe pvp.

seriouly, during this balance conversations
i realized poe is not a pvp game and that part of the game does not require any investment.

in it's fundamentals there are way bigger problems than T values. probably the most sane post is posted by lapiz, yet if GGG will listen to the players, most of "players"(the people who write here most didn't even tried to take a top place in broken pvp meta to feel what is really really wrong about the game, their observations are just "guesses") have very low perception about what a pvp game should be about, what differs a fair win condition from unfair etc. Rangers should be hitting hard, if you nerf damage overall too much we'll be back to times where cycloners try to outflask each other for 1 minute straight and hope to get better damage rolls than their opponent. pvp is about formulating your opponent's win condition and countering it with your accurate decision making in both build making and micro management. Therefore, the one shot autism and tank build autism is damaging pvp experience in same ways. Rangers, trappers there are no other win condition for them to exist in pvp than hitting hard. Same for miners, they should 1 or 2 shot you. Melee, yes, they should be hitting hard. If you totally bash DPS builds, the diversity of the builds will be no better than it is now.


What people want is just to nerf verything to the ground and make the game into a "flask management simulator" and leave no win condition alive in the game. this would be just a poor man's street fighter with totaly set of 2 moves.(2x 6l skills, or maybe 2 more cwdt auto triggers thats all) (also add flasks of course to this equation to make it even boring so you can't kill each other for long time) moreover, you can't have a fair micro based game with the given flasks in poe. ARPG pvp isn't about micro skills, timing only, it's more than that.

an ARPG pvp experience is doomed to be gear dependant, and should be based on outplaying target with an inevitable win condition that your opponent can/has no answer. If you want totally micro, timing oriented pvp why don't you just play street figher then? Or dota mid 1v1 or some stuff like that. IN a game which has huge passive tree, and such huge selection of gear choices. It's a total waste of time to balance things by reducing damage outputs. the game will be either bland-tasteless or stay imbalanced.

recommendations:

make everything blockable/dodgeable, take a look again to every skill which has secondary damage.
and Fix god damn zerphi. That would be enough

Phys builds are almost non existent due to easy endu charge generation from passives and items and ic which completely negates phys dmg. Phys immunity is attainable even with min investment. In contrast, there is no reliable way to deal with ele dmg due to the abundance of all ele pen nodes and mods. This is not good for diversity.

not to mention x phys taken as ele dmg and phys reduction mods.

Would be really nice if something was done about secondary damage, it's really not cool how it just ignores half the defensive mechanics. Maybe make it so it has to pass a BCR check and if it fails, the damage that goes thru will be reduced by % of the enemy block/dodge.

"

Rupenus wrote:

That would be enough

Really guys, how can't you see, the game is perfectly balanced, if your ranged attack build able to oneshot any opponent regardless of evasion or dodge, ignoring their movement pattern, available temporal or permanent buffs, human reaction time - this is fine, this is because you've just reached win condition and let it be this way leave my nurtured ranger alone :'(

"

ThisIsABuff wrote:

"

Rupenus wrote:

That would be enough

Really guys, how can't you see, the game is perfectly balanced, if your ranged attack build able to oneshot any opponent regardless of evasion or dodge, ignoring their movement pattern, available temporal or permanent buffs, human reaction time - this is fine, this is because you've just reached win condition and let it be this way leave my nurtured ranger alone :'(

what you do is simply reducing the meaning of what i was trying to point out. I emphasized that one shot and tank meta has no difference in between. Both are equally bad in my book and if you want to exchange ideas through arguments without diminshing core meanings, you are welcome.

i dont know your IGN, but we were through times where the only win condition for spell casters were tempest shield/molten shell, where there were no win conditions for rangers(only trappers), melee was using cyclone which bypasses T values and could tank any damage besides EA or tempest/molten and EA was dealing most damage with almost no damage investmens.

It was equally shitty, more toxic than ever(EA had no counters, avenger life flasks were too OP) and frustrating to play

(funny note: i was one of the few guys who was using "legit" skill even Mulla was cyclone "abuser)

@rupenus.

We are talking about post 2.0.

Even if Ranged skills and classes were to be nerfed for 50% less damage or if proj could not offscreen 3 screens away, they have so much tools now with dodge/avoid/move speed QOF/ pen on tree and gear, universal pen with shroud and enchants/blink/mirror arrow that they would still dominate the field.

I don t think we would go back to cyclone era simply because there is so much things ranged got for them now.

THere is big problems with 1 shot skills having 7 proj and 3 screen distance targets. I don t mind if ranged can 1 shot but not when they have full screen of proj spread.

Also,
-LAcerate hit way too hard and will get a buff. This skill need to be PVP adjusted
-Bladeflurry too and I suspect charged dash will need too

most of the people that comes to pvp are using very expensive pve setups, they are obviously going to lose. Also, do you know how much investment it takes to make for example a wander or fireballer to actually do that kind of damage?.

Skills naturally feels overpowered when you come into PvP with 200ex worth of gear vs someone who's fully invested in pvp, passive/nodes/gems ,and have over 3000 exalteds worth of gear.

I hope people keep an open mind, for eg, A spectral throw PvE turned PvP isn't going to work vs someone that has more range and faster projectile than you . and naturally you'd feel everything is wayy to strong and therfor everything needed to be brought down so your spectral throw can shine.

In my personal opinion, Only a few things requires a nerf or rework.

magma orb - everyone knows this, but im surprised it isnt listed on the watchlist.

melees, they need more defense somehow

Zerphis, this is the main cause of 90% of the problem. While i was climbing the ladder on beastiary 99% of my games were a form of volatile dead, mostly zerphis. so yes , this seems pretty obvious