On Balance Feedback and Charge Changes

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moush wrote:

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NessOnett8 wrote:

THIS RUINS BUILD DIVERSITY WHICH IS BAD FOR LONG TERM BALANCE.

How does a pretty much across the board nerf to all of the strongest builds in the game ruin diversity? Making charges less mandatory is good for general play and leads to less tedious gameplay. Slapping a Herald + CoH set-up to every build is not diverse.

Herald plus curse on hit setup is the most inefficient thing in the game, it works for maps but it's totally unwanted and useless against bosses. Herald of thunder has a duration, and needs to kill shocked stuff.

but i bet you already clean maps without CoH at insane speed... So . Pointless?

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moush wrote:

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NessOnett8 wrote:

THIS RUINS BUILD DIVERSITY WHICH IS BAD FOR LONG TERM BALANCE.

How does a pretty much across the board nerf to all of the strongest builds in the game ruin diversity? Making charges less mandatory is good for general play and leads to less tedious gameplay. Slapping a Herald + CoH set-up to every build is not diverse.

You have it backwards. This makes charges MORE mandatory. But simultaneously pidgeon-holes which builds they can go into. Now EVERY caster HAS to stack power charges because they're so efficient. But at the same time ONLY casters can stack power charges because they aren't remotely efficient for anyone else.

A mechanic that every caster character HAS to use and that ONLY caster characters can use is literally the antithesis of build diversity.

As for "across the board nerf to all the strongest builds in the game"...currently the strongest builds in the game are: Physical Raider(unchanged by this), Support Necro(unchanged by this), and VP Zerker(unchanged by this). So no, this does absolutely nothing to reign in the most powerful builds. Because none of those builds used power charges(or it was at least uncommon), and the one that used frenzy charges was already using attack skills.

And I'm curious why you're throwing heralds and CoH into the discussion, since they have literally no bearing on this whatsoever. They have no interaction with any of these changes and are no better or worse than they were yesterday.

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NessOnett8 wrote:

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grepman wrote:

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jimdawg57 wrote:

My problem with power charge change: attack builds only get 30% crit from the charges. A power charge is a minimum of 2 nodes that average to 15% crit per node. Every other crit cluster on the tree averages to at least 20% crit per node, includes some amount of crit multi, and doesn't require the work to keep charges up. On no attack build would I take a power charge for 15% average crit per node over a standard damage node

My problem with frenzy charges: spell casters only get 4% cast speed per frenzy charge. A frenzy charge is a minimum of 2 points that average to 2% cast speed per node. Normal cast speed nodes are 3% or higher, so I would never use points on frenzy charges over standard cast speed nodes or other damage nodes. If frenzy charges still had more damage to spells, I would find them a worthwhile choice still. For 4% cast speed they are hardly worth the trouble to keep up, even for the 3 you get with no investment

so instead of blindly stacking charges on both build variants, you are forced to explore other alternatives.

where exactly is the problem ?

Did you even read what you quoted, or what you wrote?

yes, I did. if you need investment in reading comprehension, I do offer classes.

in live version, show me 3 builds [non-summoner/support- ie deal damage yourself] that if they had some means to sustain/generate frenzy charges, would opt to not use them and instead go into other alternative ?

literally any build that does damage benefits from frenzy charges. RF ? yes. bleed explosions ? yes. and so on. moreover, the generic more multiplier has no diminishing returns unlike other alternatives.

if your build had 1m dps, what other alternatives that would increase it to 1.2 m (with 5 frenzies) are there with a comparable investment on the tree and a charge-generating skill/item ?

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It makes you BLINDLY stack power charges on EVERY caster and nobody else. It makes you BLINDLY stack frenzy charges on EVERY attacker and nobody else.

pretty sure I said 'BOTH'. what is the reason now for a build to NOT stack frenzy charge if given the opportunity ?

there is nothing inherently wrong with charges that are good for one archetype and useless for others. this is how alternatives get born. from limitations, not cherry picking the most powerful thing

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Geisalt wrote:

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moush wrote:

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NessOnett8 wrote:

THIS RUINS BUILD DIVERSITY WHICH IS BAD FOR LONG TERM BALANCE.

How does a pretty much across the board nerf to all of the strongest builds in the game ruin diversity? Making charges less mandatory is good for general play and leads to less tedious gameplay. Slapping a Herald + CoH set-up to every build is not diverse.

Herald plus curse on hit setup is the most inefficient thing in the game, it works for maps but it's totally unwanted and useless against bosses. Herald of thunder has a duration, and needs to shock stuff.

but i bet you already clean maps without CoH at insane speed... So . Pointless?

I think this highlights one of the issues of balance. Players play at different tiers and have different goals. I bet his coh herald setup is great on dried lake but players who do T16 maps non stop realize coh herald setups do nothing where it counts which is bosses.

The only time you actually need charge generation, status ailments, and curses are vs bosses and GGG has made it useless for such.

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Chris wrote:

...our balance team doesn't play Path of Exile. They actually do play it, a whole lot.... The minimum requirement to join our QA team is 1000 hours of PoE experience"

There is any way i can help you guys?

• Nerf total crit chance available. It was getting too close to cap, too easily.
  OK
  
• Nerf the Assassin. This was frequently requested.
  OK - Poison need nerf
  
• Provide more uses for power charges on spellcasters (especially non-crit ones).
  OK Change how charges works is good. BUt some gems and unique NEED charges. So, chage it you need to change that gems and uniques. ALL. Example: Power Siphon - Vigilant Strike - The new chest for traps (its is already BAD, and now it is ridiculous).
  
• Make it less mandatory for general damage dealers to invest in frenzy charges.
  OK
  

We communicated poorly about the changes and their motivation. While we may lament the community misunderstanding the consequences of the change, it is clearly our fault for confusing the community.
This is not. People must known what happens, before it happens[/b]


Almost all of these changes are on Beta. Please playtest them and let us know the results of what you find. We'll post again after the weekend with our findings also.
I will try to help here

Good morning Cris,

The path of exile gives me thousands of hours of game play. THANKS.


Congratulations on the excellent work.

I will be straight to the point:


A) Thank you for talking to people through the official forum and not for reedit.

B) I did not know about these changes. I think they intended to be announced shortly. I connected the game - I downloaded a patch and decided to go on the website to know what happened.

C) The complaint of people is due to change and adaptation. That is, people do not want to leave the comfort zone.

D) Each time you change the game, it becomes a new game. Keep changing, but calmly and carefully.

E) Frenzy Charge: the change is coherent. Increases attack damage. But need to help with damage for Spell to because you need it for some spells and build. Example is power siphon - other is Caustic arrow builds.

F) Power charge: it has the same role as the frenzy charge in terms of magnification of damage, but for spells. The change is good. But critical spell damage is already powerfull. A critical node is better than a damage node without itens with increased critical strike chance. With this changes.

G) Endurance charge: I found the changes (none) limited. I think it would be better to have some MORE. My suggestion is to have MORE ARMOR. The only bad charge have no modification???

H) Assassin: This class was very powerful and needs to be nerfed. Just be careful as it will be, for this class is the highest-class damage, but no defense. The biggest nerf needs to be about the Poison. He who is unbalancing the game. It has become very easy to put poison in the damage of Ice, Fire, Electricity, Physical and Chaos.

I) Pathfinder will not recerber any nerf? Maybe it's not necessary. But it's important that the Flasks are nerfed. Each flask offers MORE 30% damage on average.


J) Armor: They do not offer any protection against elemental damage and this needs to be improved. Even worse, it offers little against the greatest damage. There needs to be some way to better extend the armor values ​​to constructed goods characters. That is, they have medium damage and excellent armor.

L) I played with a character with Evasion for the first time on BETA. I like magicians, usually. And I used the ancestry to trap. I found Blind extremely powerful. And nobody uses it. With little evasion, about 3,000, I was practically immortal. I just died for Dead Explosion. Which led me to using Purity of Fire. I think for armor users I had to feel that way, almost immortal.

M) Juggernaut must be reworked. Peopel use it for lige regen (RF builds) and for Charge generator to do damage. Noone use it as in a tank build. I can see a Duelist(champion) as a tank build, but not Juggernaut. Please, rework it. Make his armours higher. Some think like, More 30% Armour in his ascendency. Or somethink like all his armours is double , not only his body.


N) Chill and Freezee: May the chill can use the damage dealed to say how much slowed the monster will be, with the time it will be chilled. Plus, chiled status can do some damage like burn, something like 1/4 of burn damage. Freezee do the same. Because in real life, if you frozen, you can die.

O) Shock: This status ailment can do some damage , something like 1/2 burn damage, and make all damage received is 50% MOre.

P) Create new passives near Marauder with "Increased Physical damage" for spell caster that wanna use physical damage.

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Nephalim wrote:

The only time you actually need charge generation, status ailments, and curses are vs bosses and GGG has made it useless for such.

theres a very simple solution to this, but playerbase who are obsessed with power will riot and burn GGG's offices.

the solution is *drumroll* make players power at a level that they actually NEED those things while mapping pre-t16/non-boss content

Hey guys from ggg, what's up? I'm Lucas from brazil and i play poe for a very longe time. Almost all time i've been trying to build around Arc skill. It would be very nice if u guys could make a jewel for it. Maybe this jewel could make arc spread (similar to fork). I mean it could be as projectile spells that can have more than one of it on the sceen. That would be very pleasing estetically and it would be insane for clearspeed. Or maybe arc jewel could give it Much more damage for the first target and much less for the rest, that way arc could handle end game bosses more easily. I'm looking forward to playing 3.0, great job guys! thanks for spellcasters love!

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moush wrote:

Each type of character blindly stacking one type of charge is still better than every character blindly stacking both.

Except that VERY few actually did. The number of builds that stacked BOTH power and frenzy charges accounts for about .01% of the population. It was a VERY rare strategy that none of the prominent, problem, "meta" builds employed whatsoever. I don't know how you can be so wrong to think this was the case...but if that's your starting assumption...you're bound to come to a backwards conclusion.

I think this is the time for "beta" to do its work, too bad there's only less than a week left to test things out. Hope we dont get R8 like in csgo tho

While I don't have a lot of expertise at the highest of builds (Usually only getting to 90 before rerolling out of boredom), I think the changes to the Assassin might have been excessive. Throughout this beta we have constantly had nerfs against poisons and bleeds, nerfs to perfect agony and now nerfs to Assassins crits do double poison/bleed. So now it seems like its worthless to even try to go crit ailments as you'd have to spend so much to get anywhere. Along with this the change to Deadly Infusion now pretty much obsoletes any build that used interesting mechanics of using power charges to make skills that had no crit chance have crit, Herald Autobomber, crit incinerate. These builds aren't that overpowered and clearly have their issues so why essentially delete them.

As for charges in general, while I agree it felt like you were losing alot if you didnt use frenzy charges, making them not work for spell casters seems to now just ignore a lot of other builds and unique items especially with the change to ice bite now having added damage from frenzies now makes it completely niche of only cold damage attack builds. The changes also seem conflicting if you look at Trickster damage over time nodes since it makes you think grab both power and frenzy but either type of build you do now loses effectiveness of the other charge. Essence Drain Tricksters now get nothing other than attack or cast speed from the Frenzies, and unless you are a crit attack build scaling damage over times, which like I mentioned earlier has been constantly nerfed, power charges are therefore useless.