Changes to the Labyrinth

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Makivante wrote:

No staff responses here. Hrmm.

So you want to make the game harder, less faceroll again, less spam movement skills. I get it.

Lab is just a lame way to do it.

Maybe I'll go play Minecraft Parkour while i wait for 3.0.

Makivante, thank you for voicing your opinion on the lame labyrinth. I've added your name to the list of of players posting a similar opinion in the forum now at 906 names long. That includes 112 or 113 names from just this thread alone! As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support

As Jonkimble and a number of others have pointed out, so-called "ascendancy" provides a homogenous experience for all character types. The resulting dissociation between character change and development and how that occurs is likely to be jarring for a lot of RPG players.

This makes the paper-thin justification for Izaro's use of a labyrinth to find an heir (dexterity as a test of who is likely to be a good emporer, really?) come across as a "deux ex machina" act by devs who want to provide a lore-based justification for pushing somebody's pet project on players. I know that many people worked very hard on labyrinth and I'm sorry if this offends. But, that's how it looks and feels.

If POE's version of prestige classes were done in a more RPG-like-way, the following objectives could be reached:

1. The change in the character would make more logical sense, which helps to get players to be more invested in their characters.
2. The process could be used to help players become better at using skills that will be key to playing their prestige class well. Many are likely to appreciate this.
3. The original classes could be presented as having a default progression, along with forking paths for different specializations. This means the original character classes are not necessarily rendered obsolete, which they currently are.
4. The current sad-sack state of Ascendant could be improved in ways that are neither underpowered nor overpowered.
5. Problems with netcode wouldn't cancel out player progress in the way lab currently does, leading to less rage-quits by players.
6. Replay value for the game as a whole would way up. Probably way, way up for many players.

Here's one example of how a more RPG-like way of putting prestige classes in POE could work, based on two out of the three current Ranger ascendancies.

Default progression as a Ranger could be toward Deadeye, meaning you work with Tora to hone your skills an archer / hunter to the point where you earn the title "Deadeye" appended to your identity as a Ranger. One of Tora's signature missions could be to for a player to shoot the arrows that Tora shoots at the player. If Tora hits the player or the player hits Tora, then the player fails on that mission. This would help players practice being a good Deadeye in a (probably) non-lethal way and fully justify making some measure of progress toward being earning the "Deadeye" title.

To become a Pathfinder, players would select the appropriate dialogue choice with Tora and be referred to a retired Ranger (backstory required!) who specializes in herbs and botanical magicks, and who happens to need some help acquiring some rare ingredients. She'll provide the player's character with a special infusion to add to her potions that allows her to fight specialized monsters that cause auto-bleed with most attacks, to cross ground that poisons players, etc. Potions use would need to be carefully timed for these missions, which helps players learn that skill early in their travels as a Pathfinder. After each mission or set of missions is complete, the Pathfinder mentor / teacher can then teach the player character something useful, as payment for services rendered.

Also, perhaps certain ascendant powers could be turned on or off at player discretion. For example, extra projectiles could be switched on or off by a player (kind of like switching an aura on or off), leading to the ability by players to go for single target if that would make sense for their current mission (ie: Vorici).

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Jonkimble wrote:

Can you imagine if the forsaken master's gave you some kind of epic quest kind for your ascendancy classes, and just kept the labyrinth for enchants/phat money loots?

From an RP standpoint, this makes more sense: ( lotsa stuff)

Glorious ideas. Hope they think about them!

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Turtledove wrote:

frogemoth, TyranitarX and rocketnob thank you for voicing your opinion on the labyrinth that it could be improved further in future releases. I've added your names to players voicing similar opinions to the list now at 900 names long. That includes 111 or 112 names from just this thread alone! As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support

Toss my name onto the list as well, I have never liked lab but I tried hard not to be a thorn in GGG's stubborn side since they almost never listen unless Reddit makes huge waves. We are their consumers as well, we just have much more tact usually... But enough is enough, now I can't even participate in a Race ladder unless I ascend????


That's too far GGG. Everyone's main counterpoint in any lab debate is "well you don't have to do it, it's 100% optional" yeah not anymore, now it's forced on us outside of core gameplay.


Something needs to change, the number of people who complained is way more than 900, just they either got banned or quit the game.

The initial rage toward the lab was staggering. Silencing opposition does not make for a better game, nor does it make for a smarter fan base.

Hopefully they listen, but I don't have my hopes up, it usually takes them bricks to the head (figuratively) with insults and psychotic behavior(this is why I mentioned Reddit) from a large core of their community before they even think to alleviate growing problems.

I know they are a small team, but how many of us does it take before you realize you are running people away from your game due to your stubborn insistence of a silly mechanic, that has zero to do with the core game outside of it's own zones and areas.

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Dublins wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

frogemoth, TyranitarX and rocketnob thank you for voicing your opinion on the labyrinth that it could be improved further in future releases. I've added your names to players voicing similar opinions to the list now at 900 names long. That includes 111 or 112 names from just this thread alone! As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support

Toss my name onto the list as well, I have never liked lab but I tried hard not to be a thorn in GGG's stubborn side since they almost never listen unless Reddit makes huge waves. We are their consumers as well, we just have much more tact usually... But enough is enough, now I can't even participate in a Race ladder unless I ascend????


That's too far GGG. Everyone's main counterpoint in any lab debate is "well you don't have to do it, it's 100% optional" yeah not anymore, now it's forced on us outside of core gameplay.


Something needs to change, the number of people who complained is way more than 900, just they either got banned or quit the game.

The initial rage toward the lab was staggering. Silencing opposition does not make for a better game, nor does it make for a smarter fan base.

Hopefully they listen, but I don't have my hopes up, it usually takes them bricks to the head (figuratively) with insults and psychotic behavior(this is why I mentioned Reddit) from a large core of their community before they even think to alleviate growing problems.

I know they are a small team, but how many of us does it take before you realize you are running people away from your game due to your stubborn insistence of a silly mechanic, that has zero to do with the core game outside of it's own zones and areas.

Dublins thank you for voicing your opinion on the labyrinth that it could be improved further in future releases. As requested I've added your name to players voicing similar opinions to the list now at 906 names long. That includes 113 or 114 names from just this thread alone! As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support

I pity all the whining fools who do not realize a single unique - Springleaf - makes any shitty build akin a Juggernaut when it comes to neutralizing all lab traps.

Besides, it only takes 20 minutes to learn all lab and Izaro mechanics and a number of runs to practice. Creating lists, making online petitions, going on a strike does not matter when a dev can look up your hilarious lab fails only to realize you decided to facetank Izaro fully charged and buffed with conduits or essences AGAIN. You people need to stop being incompetent and learn about encounters during Izaro phases and how to disable some of them.

Making a lab runner character and running uber lab over and over made me realize it's really simple, not that bad a design and can be actually quite challenging and fun.

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NickK_GGG wrote:

This also means that a failed run will generally feel less bad...

Less bad is a terrible thing to shoot for in your game. I'm sad for those at GGG who feel passionate about the Labyrinth.

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MadAndrew wrote:

I pity all the whining fools who do not realize a single unique - Springleaf - makes any shitty build akin a Juggernaut when it comes to neutralizing all lab traps.

Besides, it only takes 20 minutes to learn all lab and Izaro mechanics and a number of runs to practice. Creating lists, making online petitions, going on a strike does not matter when a dev can look up your hilarious lab fails only to realize you decided to facetank Izaro fully charged and buffed with conduits or essences AGAIN. You people need to stop being incompetent and learn about encounters during Izaro phases and how to disable some of them.

Making a lab runner character and running uber lab over and over made me realize it's really simple, not that bad a design and can be actually quite challenging and fun.

Stereotyping others isn't very humble. Nor is your portrayal of a very large number of people concerning whom you know nothing particularly accurate, either.

The next time somebody offers you a food you find disgusting, think about how much fun it would be to eat that over and over again. Then you'll begin to get a better sense of why people actually dislike lab.

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The next time somebody offers you a food you find disgusting, think about how much fun it would be to eat that over and over again. Then you'll begin to get a better sense of why people actually dislike lab.

Apologies for being blunt, I do agree that lab has to be made truly optional: either through damage scaling caps based on difficulty, no rewards/non-hardcore mode or entirely different way of allocating ascendancy points.

Especially since players actively voicing their concern normally constitute only a small percentage of total number of players being literally forced into an existential crisis by challenging content.

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MadAndrew wrote:

Making a lab runner character and running uber lab over and over made me realize it's really simple, not that bad a design and can be actually quite challenging and fun.

Have fun and play the content you like.
But do noy force it to other's people throats.
Plain and simple