Damage Over Time Changes - Part 2

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Lord_Tao wrote:

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Hagitsu wrote:

Ok so I do have a question here. Considering bleed via melee attack and Area Damage on jewel slots. I don't know if I understood this correctly, do this AD on jewel will be also multiplied by bleed from melee hit in area where hit/bleed was caused? So like Earthquake with Disfavor, it would/wouldn't work that way in whole area of skill effect? Cuz honestly, I just don't understand that o.O

Pls for clarification in advance and thanks for great work!

Which jewels specifically?


Only increasing base physical or damage will scale the bleed (adds X physical damage to attacks, covert X other damage to x physical). Increased damage, increased physical damage, and increased bleed damage are the only modifiers which will scale bleed damage.

The changes are a double nerf because of this. Increased attack, AOE, projectile, melee, and weapon damage not only don't double dip anymore, but don't scale the bleed at all now.

Lol really? o.O Sry if my questions are little childish at some point, but my gameplay is still quite short. So for example jewel with damage over time and area damage. I suppose now AD will scale only with physical skill hit but damage over time should still scale with bleed.

But my question is, IF my portion of bleed would be lower o.O atm I'm using Melee on full life linked instead of Increased Area/Conc Effect. Somehow it suited me most. Same with jewels. Tho I was also thinking about changing to Bloodlust support in such case o.O If I'd head totally in damage over time in priority over area damage/melee hit. But seriously I'm wondring if my portion of damage which comes from bleed would be lower or higher lol. I quess I'll check it soon enough in beta lol.

I'd not consider my build as double dipping, probably it's kinda hard for melee Juggernaut ^^ but this changes wonders me. I'm curious about that base values of damage over time. And if it would be worthy to drop one melee damage node on tree for Bloodletting. And the same with Amplify node. Donno if it will be worthy to save this AD or just concentrate on scaling damage over time hmm...

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Hagitsu wrote:

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Lord_Tao wrote:

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Hagitsu wrote:

Ok so I do have a question here. Considering bleed via melee attack and Area Damage on jewel slots. I don't know if I understood this correctly, do this AD on jewel will be also multiplied by bleed from melee hit in area where hit/bleed was caused? So like Earthquake with Disfavor, it would/wouldn't work that way in whole area of skill effect? Cuz honestly, I just don't understand that o.O

Pls for clarification in advance and thanks for great work!

Which jewels specifically?


Only increasing base physical or damage will scale the bleed (adds X physical damage to attacks, covert X other damage to x physical). Increased damage, increased physical damage, and increased bleed damage are the only modifiers which will scale bleed damage.

The changes are a double nerf because of this. Increased attack, AOE, projectile, melee, and weapon damage not only don't double dip anymore, but don't scale the bleed at all now.

Lol really? o.O Sry if my questions are little childish at some point, but my gameplay is still quite short. So for example jewel with damage over time and area damage. I suppose now AD will scale only with physical skill hit but damage over time should still scale with bleed.

But my question is, IF my portion of bleed would be lower o.O atm I'm using Melee on full life linked instead of Increased Area/Conc Effect. Somehow it suited me most. Same with jewels. Tho I was also thinking about changing to Bloodlust support in such case o.O If I'd head totally in damage over time in priority over area damage/melee hit. But seriously I'm wondring if my portion of damage which comes from bleed would be lower or higher lol. I quess I'll check it soon enough in beta lol.

I'd not consider my build as double dipping, probably it's kinda hard for melee Juggernaut ^^ but this changes wonders me. I'm curious about that base values of damage over time. And if it would be worthy to drop one melee damage node on tree for Bloodletting. And the same with Amplify node. Donno if it will be worthy to save this AD or just concentrate on scaling damage over time hmm...

Yes increased damage over time should affect the bleed, but increased AOE would not.

Bleed in all instances will be far far lower, even those that didn't double dip at all.

From what I understand of the current mechanics, bleed will do an additional 10-60% of your hit damage which is like a 10-60% MORE more multiplier (without the current double dip), but you have in invest in bleed chance.

The new mechanics won't scale the bleed at all, but those values are doubled. Essentially bleed will be 20-120% increased physical damage per second at a high cost to get the increased chance. Not worth making a build around. 120% increased damage seems like a lot, but is diminishing returns on top of an established build, only applies to one attack at a time, and not worth the cost of gear or passive skill points.

Bleed is just a bonus to your DPS now if you manage to get some bleed chance easily. You would be better off scaling your attack probably.

Oh ok...I'm starting to feeling it now. I'm still wondering if total edps of my build gonna be nerfed lol o.O It's not even as huge now xD And I'm not even abusing double dipping lol ^^ I'm just using earthquake with Voidheart, Disfavour and Herald of Ash. So all 3 factors are gonan be changed bleed, poison and burning lol. But man if not those DoT's, my dps would be very weak ^^

Still, waiting for patch goes live, and thank You for replies :)

Peace

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Hagitsu wrote:

Oh ok...I'm starting to feeling it now. I'm still wondering if total edps of my build gonna be nerfed lol o.O It's not even as huge now xD And I'm not even abusing double dipping lol ^^ I'm just using earthquake with Voidheart, Disfavour and Herald of Ash. So all 3 factors are gonan be changed bleed, poison and burning lol. But man if not those DoT's, my dps would be very weak ^^

Still, waiting for patch goes live, and thank You for replies :)

Peace

I took a look at your character and yeah you aren't really double dipping. Mostly projectile characters with the projectile gems were. You should loose some bleed, poison, and ignite damage depending on the passive skills you take.

However your less duration could be hitting your DPS fairly hard. It speeds up earthquake, but lessens your poison and bleed duration I believe.

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Lord_Tao wrote:

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Hagitsu wrote:

Oh ok...I'm starting to feeling it now. I'm still wondering if total edps of my build gonna be nerfed lol o.O It's not even as huge now xD And I'm not even abusing double dipping lol ^^ I'm just using earthquake with Voidheart, Disfavour and Herald of Ash. So all 3 factors are gonan be changed bleed, poison and burning lol. But man if not those DoT's, my dps would be very weak ^^

Still, waiting for patch goes live, and thank You for replies :)

Peace

I took a look at your character and yeah you aren't really double dipping. Mostly projectile characters with the projectile gems were. You should loose some bleed, poison, and ignite damage depending on the passive skills you take.

However your less duration could be hitting your DPS fairly hard. It speeds up earthquake, but lessens your poison and bleed duration I believe.

Oh...Thanks, Brother! I guess now it's just waiting for the patch and to eastimate theoretically changes in my tree and to take one of path: either to increase skill hits itself or...but as You wrote it would be better option. And to treat those three DoT's as an additional damage. Thanks once again! :)

This change affects my own general playstyle and character-building tendencies more than any other, at least since the addition of the Poison support gem. That said, though I'm super nervous, I can't say that I'm pissed. Just Be Careful!

love you ggg

these changes make it sound like explosive arrow is going to rule the world, as it benefits from all changes and isn't affected by any of the negative factors with these changes

It's very interesting to me how all of these changes have to sound like a congressional speech on changes to a bill/law. This is a video game at its core. At what point does a video game stop being fun and becomes a serious issue in need of overhaul. I can certainly understand the need for balance and equality in things, but this is just a game. Please just keep in mind that it isn't that serious. If this game fills up with people that complain and want a complicated structure for damage/mitigation/de-gen and etc, consider that maybe it's heading in the wrong direction. For the overwhelming majority of gamers, it's a world to enjoy and not worry about all the details. When you have tools to actually break down all the damage and mitigation numbers instead of just doing it in your head and having a great general knowledge after a couple months; maybe it's time to simplify things. Most people want to just relax and play this game. I enjoy the information and appreciate details, but at some point it becomes a bit much for the average player coming into your game. Thanks for reading.

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Lord_Tao wrote:

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SmileAndNod wrote:

I guess in some areas you can go both Based Damage and DOT. For example, if the skill gem has something like "Increase in 'Based' damage also apply to 'DOT'." But they would have to reduce the skill gem's based damage significantly to balance out the damage. If they don't then there will be an unbalance in skill gems and people would only be playing those skill gems to get the double damage boost.

But with all said and done, the end result of this change would be that you would either be focusing on increasing your Base Damage or your DOT. There is really no point in having both when you can't double dip and efficiently increase both Base Damage and DOT.

Another thing is whether or not poison will continue to stack. If poison does not stack then it's GG for poison build. If it does stack then it'll be more of a buff than it would be a Nerf. With this change, you won't need to rely on insanely high base damage to do good DOT. You will only need to stack up DOT very fast and increase DOT through DOT multiplier. A Blade Vortex Build will do just the job.

Also, let's take this into consideration. If DOT is not affected by the increase of Base Damage Multiplier then it will not be affected by the decrease of Base Damage Multiplier either. In other words, you can link LMP & GMP on a skill gem and it wouldn't decrease the DOT. That is OP!

This leads me to my final question. Will they be adding a life leech on DOT? Cause the greatest weakness of DOT is that it can't leech life. Most build rely on the base damage to leech life. Without life leech, I think most people would go for a Based Damage build unless they're a totem build.

You might be misunderstanding the concept of 'double dip'. In poison you literally had increases in damage apply again to damage it already scaled.

Say you have 50% increased area damage. Currently in poison you have:

Base damage X *(1+ .50 increased area damage)= hit damage Poison = 0.08* hit damage (which is already scaled by the increased area damage) X (1+ .50 increased area damage)

So poison damage = 0.08*[Base *1.5]* 1.5 <-- the area damage increase is in that formula twice, multiplying itself.

In the new system, if an increase in damage scales both your hit, and the poison there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it isn't a double dip, since poison isn't scaled off the hit damage, only the attack base damage.

It would have been better to keep the old system and not scale bleed/poison/ignite a second time except by increases specifically for bleed/poison/ignite (or burning).


That being said, I wouldn't say that ignoring the down side of GMP as being OP. A finished build will have say 400% increased damage from all sources. So currently poison would be: 0.08*[base damage X 5.00] * 5.00 which is OP.

However under the new system (assuming the same build with 400% in bonuses to attack skill damage) poison is 0.08 X base damage X 1.00. None of the 400% applies which is faaaarrr from worth the benefit of not having the less modifier from GMP.

Put another way: Increases for your attack damage or poison damage don't apply to the other damage source. This effectively makes every increase to damage on the passive tree half value. Double dipping made them double value, or more correctly: added again as a MORE damage multiplier for the poison. Instead, the passive nodes should be at face value and this would be done by having poison work as it did, just without scaling the poison damage a second time.

That's what I've said. Because you can't double dip anymore, you'll either be doing DOT or Base damage.

As for poison, you'll have to take into consideration that there will be more DOT multiplier in the new league in terms of support gems and passive nodes. Not only that, you'll get poison chance mods from weapon as well so you don't need to link poison support gem. And because DOT isn't affect by base damage modifier so you can get more projectiles to stack up poison faster. Unlike base damage, poison damage stacks infinitely. Which means that it is better for you have faster stacking. The new league would double poison DOT as well. The draw back would be that your based damage will be crap if you focus on your DOT.

At the end of the day, you won't be getting the same damage as you would in double dipping. But you can still make poison work if you go a DOT build.

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SmileAndNod wrote:

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Lord_Tao wrote:

You might be misunderstanding the concept of 'double dip'. In poison you literally had increases in damage apply again to damage it already scaled.

Say you have 50% increased area damage. Currently in poison you have:

Base damage X *(1+ .50 increased area damage)= hit damage Poison = 0.08* hit damage (which is already scaled by the increased area damage) X (1+ .50 increased area damage)

So poison damage = 0.08*[Base *1.5]* 1.5 <-- the area damage increase is in that formula twice, multiplying itself.

In the new system, if an increase in damage scales both your hit, and the poison there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it isn't a double dip, since poison isn't scaled off the hit damage, only the attack base damage.

It would have been better to keep the old system and not scale bleed/poison/ignite a second time except by increases specifically for bleed/poison/ignite (or burning).


That being said, I wouldn't say that ignoring the down side of GMP as being OP. A finished build will have say 400% increased damage from all sources. So currently poison would be: 0.08*[base damage X 5.00] * 5.00 which is OP.

However under the new system (assuming the same build with 400% in bonuses to attack skill damage) poison is 0.08 X base damage X 1.00. None of the 400% applies which is faaaarrr from worth the benefit of not having the less modifier from GMP.

Put another way: Increases for your attack damage or poison damage don't apply to the other damage source. This effectively makes every increase to damage on the passive tree half value. Double dipping made them double value, or more correctly: added again as a MORE damage multiplier for the poison. Instead, the passive nodes should be at face value and this would be done by having poison work as it did, just without scaling the poison damage a second time.

That's what I've said. Because you can't double dip anymore, you'll either be doing DOT or Base damage.

As for poison, you'll have to take into consideration that there will be more DOT multiplier in the new league in terms of support gems and passive nodes. Not only that, you'll get poison chance mods from weapon as well so you don't need to link poison support gem. And because DOT isn't affect by base damage modifier so you can get more projectiles to stack up poison faster. Unlike base damage, poison damage stacks infinitely. Which means that it is better for you have faster stacking. The new league would double poison DOT as well. The draw back would be that your based damage will be crap if you focus on your DOT.

At the end of the day, you won't be getting the same damage as you would in double dipping. But you can still make poison work if you go a DOT build.

The reason isn't because you can't double dip anymore. The reason is they removed double dipping AND then removed universal scaling (double nerf).

For example, Increased fire damage would apply to the hit (which scaled the ignite, then was applied again to the ignite which means that node was multiplied by itself. Increased fire damage at least still scales both, but increased attack, projectile, aoe, etc don't scale both anymore, along with no longer double dipping.

Also hit damage stacks the same as poison, by hit. You stack hit damage by attacking faster just like poison.

As for the new weapon mods, they are only on the weapon types which were the problem. Wands and others which didn't abuse poison or bleed as badly are really left in the dust with the new system as they can't roll them.


I think you over estimate how well some of the 'advantages' for poison will work, compared to how much poison looses. Not having GMP affect poison and the new X2 multiplier still leaves poison far lower than it should be by just removing the double dip.

Also DOT nodes if they were 10% for a basic one before would have to be 20-30% to make up for the loss in damage. Notables would need to be in the ball park of 100%.

Here is the math to show how bad the double ner is, and the X2 or not being affected by GMP doesn't put a dent in the deficit.

Some math to illustrate the point:

Say you have increased:

Physical damage 100%

Attack damage 100%

Aoe damage 100%

Projectile damage 100%

More area damage 50%

Old system

A 100 dam phys hit would do:

100*(5.0) *(1.5)= 750 hit damage. Poison would do 750* 0.08= 60 base poison damage *(4.0) *(1.5)= 360 double dipped poison damage (the increased physical doesn't double dip poison, but it double dips bleed)

60 poison damage would be a fine change

*This would be increased by your crit multiplier (once as it doesn't double dip).

New system

Damage =750. Poison = 100*0.08 *1.00 =8 X2 for new mechanic =16.0 poison damage
*note that none of the damage above, even attack damage scales poison anymore on top of not double dipping anymore. Also no crit multiplier.

From that example, the poison damage per second is going from the 360 currently to 16. Going to 60 damage (which is the value before double dipping) would be fine.