Damage Over Time Changes - Part 1

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tacotiklah wrote:
I'm curious how this will affect skills like viper strike, which rely pretty heavily on poison double dipping to feel good overall.


You will not stack phys damage but instead rely on chaos and poison damage from the tree. They said that it will be based on the base of the skill which will probably be adjusted in the implementation, plus they said that all the poison nodes are getting a significant buff to compensate for the loss. So if you will build pure chaos/poison you should be fine.
"Let your smile change the world, but don't let the world change your smile." -unknown
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nerfing ignite is stupid, ignite does not stack and therefore does not scale with attack/castspeed.
current ignite does 20%dmg per second, with 1k doupledip dmg this is 220% per second, that means that you can match the ignite dmg by just casting the spell 2,2 times a second.

instead of finally nerfing crit you are forced to play crit, good job.
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Entropher wrote:
Wait, spell damage applied to burn til now??

It did with certain spells like Vortex or Essence Drain (well in this case spell damage boosted both base damage and DoT damage of ES and if you poisoned with it, it boosted poison damage as well). I don't think it worked universally.

Last edited by Torin on Apr 27, 2017, 9:19:59 AM
RIP Taming+Emberwake I loved you and I shall miss you.

Now for some constructive opinionating, I hope with all these changes the boss immunities are going to be looked at, what I mean by this is I play exclusively life based builds (don't like ES based don't ask why I don't know) and for me double dipping damage is the only way I seem to have been able to defeat most end game stuff, simply because life is weak and trying to dodge around bosses for 5+ minutes while the new DoT's work seems like an impossible job for 6 portals.

You cant die 6 times if you can kill the boss in a comfortable time, I feel like these changes will make end game bosses unfairly tanky if life builds and boss hp/immunities aren't looked at.
I had really high hopes for these changes and looks like you pulled through on those. Looks great!
Just looking for some clarification on a few things, based on what I've seen reading replies, the community isn't sure if this will change any of the modifiers that affect RF, though it will receive a significant buff with the changes to support gems.

Will any of the changes negatively affect any of the current ways of scaling RF?


next question if a very unique and specific question, and that is will we be seeing a lot more rips to the grandmaster that uses barrage to apply powerful bleeds as they do half damage now while standing still or are grandmasters considered monsters in this case still only doing 1/6 damage? From what I've experienced they are treated as players and it's a pvp environment so I forsee a lot more deaths to that grandmaster than before.

This leads me to another question I hadn't thought of before writing out that last question. Does this mean bleeds are going to be super op in pvp? Before if you knew someone was using bleeds as their main damage you could normally defeat them by standing your ground and a bleed flask for panic situations. Now if you did that you would likely still rip to the bleed the second you run out of flask charges.


Spoiler
Who am I kidding GGG doesn't give a shit about pvp. Gonna be even more annoying to level leo.
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Rory wrote:
Reply to this forum post with any questions you have about damage over time mechanics or design, we'll be answering them in a third post in this series.


I have a question, that is not exactly about DoT mechanics, but is absolutely relevant to everyone who wants to make a DoT build:

When the tooltip's approach to crucial info delivery (hit dmg, dot dmg, duration, etc) will be updated?
many builds suffer from this lack of good info delivery on the tooltips, but since DoT has a more complex math it becomes an even worse problem.

maybe a built in calculator? I don´t really think the tooltip has enough space for that much info, but for a game that is totally based on informed decisions, we have very poor tools for decision making.
Can you please also talk about Immunitys against Bleed/Poison/Ignite on Bosses (Such as the Guardians). I hope that they'll be a thing of the past with the upcoming changes...
caustic arrow = unplayable in light of changes?
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mhyoung wrote:
maybe a built in calculator? I don´t really think the tooltip has enough space for that much info, but for a game that is totally based on informed decisions, we have very poor tools for decision making.


Just download Path of Building. Their built in calculators provide way more info about your skills than you could ever fit in a tooltip.
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Cyrith3 wrote:
This seems kind of concerning. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, so here are my concerns.

There are double dips that I would consider intuitive, and ones I would consider completely idiotic. For the latter, here is an example: projectile damage poison double dipping. This is utterly idiotic and requires knowledge that the game just doesn't provide to know it is a thing - I know my friend was making a phys/chaos bow based poison build and I had to explain this to him, the difference was hugely surprising. This wasn't really addressed in the post, though I'm sure it is a consideration, if it was not, PLEASE ADDRESS THESE.

The main concern I have is the approach. From what I gathered, it seems as though any build that does not explicitly focus on these mechanics will basically get zero value out of them.

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This means that Increased Spell, Attack, or Weapon Damage will no longer influence your Ignite, Poison or Bleed damage at all. It also means that while modifiers to Fire Damage will still apply both to a hit and to the Ignite it causes


My reading of this was that suppose a spell deals at base, 100 damage, and ignites for 20 damage per second over 5 seconds (this includes the doubled ignite buff proposed in the post). Suppose I get 100% increased spell damage, now I have 200 damage on hit, my ignite still at only 20 dps over 5s. Suppose I get area damage, cast speed, etc, all these modifiers - my ignite will not scale from them. I appreciate the thought in saying that scaling the initial hit and the DoT from certain modifiers can be counter-intuitive, but I strongly believe that this would be even more confusing.

Suppose we have a new player who is reasonably competent in the current system, you can imagine something like: 'So ignite damage is based off the damage dealt, and deals fire damage. So if I get more fire damage I will hit harder, and presumably the ignite would also be affected by that fire damage, that sounds interesting!'. Compare this to the new system where you have 'So ignite damage is dealt based on the base damage and is scaled with fire so if I get fire damage both will increase, but if I get spell damage surely the ignite damage will increase since it is a spell effect, or would it not be counted since it doesn't have "modifiers to spell damage also increase this spell's damage over time" on it?'. Immediately more questions are brought up than before.

This is a game that rewards thought and exploration of game mechanics, and this simply adds a very bandaged 'fix' to the system that arguably doesn't need to be done. A much better approach to enable non-DoT builds would be something like passives and skill gems that do the same trick. Imagine a keystone that hugely increases your damage but removes your ability to ignite/poison/bleed. Or support gems in the same vein as elemental focus that remove the ability to damage over time but increase the damage you dealt if you would have ignited or applied bleed/poison. Making mechanics selectively apply to some things and not others just makes the game less approachable and less deep, and this can only be harmful. Furthermore taking power out of double dipping, only to just put more power into the things double dipping affected and making passives apply to both the initial and the DoT kind of just... is a rewording of the whole thing? In general this just seems BAD. Maybe I have it all wrong, but this just does not seem like a good fix to the problem.


+1 for this post. I agree this seems like a bandage fix and will further limit the number of viable builds. Will wait to see how it rolls in beta, but I agree with this post that another approach to making non-DOT builds viable would be nodes that greatly boost base damage while removing or mitigating the ability to ignite/bleed/poison.

Completely removing or greatly reducing a source of damage just to balance will only make all previous builds that relied on DOT damage less viable.

Again, will have to wait and see how this is implemented. I would really love to hear thoughts from the master build craftsmen who design the endgame builds we all use.

For the record, double-dipping is only bad with chips and dips when you are at a party.

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