[2.5] 2600+ Int Whispering Ice Guardian. Wonderous Wizard of Wisdom

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HoLySnOwXX wrote:

I'm not going to post spreadsheets in this thread. After theorycrafting for a while I just wanna play the game. If I post a spreadsheet people are going to ask questions and that takes time to answer and explain ;)

Just think of it like this. The main bonus ice torm gets from Intelligence is the 1-3 base damage per 10 int. That is actually the thing that has the most impact when scaling int, the others are minor compared to it.

Ice storm gets 1-3 base damage, but ALSO 1/10 increased spell damage per Int. Did you consider this in your spreadsheet?

I also found this, as a start: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n2tLJN9gFuv00lQRACpCe3vCLAprUpxKZ2SF1u0-Pf4/edit#gid=728474288

According to that, 2400 int is equivalent to 2000 int and 100 spell damage. But would need a much more advanced version than this to consider all variables.

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WaffleT wrote:

Ah I get it. You are incorrectly assuming I based my 11% estimate off a character with low levels of Int instead of swapping and comparing those nodes on my existing character with very high int.

No. I'm not sure where you got 11% increased damage from and how you define it. When talking about increased damage poe is tricky, because wording is very important. And increased and more damage means smth. different.

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siliconlife wrote:

Ice storm gets 1-3 base damage, but ALSO 1/10 increased spell damage per Int. Did you consider this in your spreadsheet?

Of course. I'll give you guys an example.

The damage of a skill can be calculated from this:
(average base damage) x (1 + sum of increased damage) x (product of more damage sources) / (casts per second)

We only calculate the damage of 1 shard and ignore duration.

Let's assume cast speed is just 1 cast / second and multipliers are just all 1 and increased damage is 0 to make it simple. Only bonuses from int are of interest for the example, the rest just multiply or devide the damage so are a constant factor as int has no impact on them.

So we only compute this: (average base damage) x (1 + sum of increased damage)

500 int -> 50-150 base damage -> 100 dmg * 1.5 inc dmg -> 150 dmg
600 int -> 60-180 base damage -> 120 dmg * 1.6 inc dmg -> 192 dmg

more damage from 100 int = 192 / 150 -> 1.28 -> 28%

2000 int -> 200-600 base damage -> 400 dmg * 3 inc dmg -> 1200 dmg
2100 int -> 210-630 base damage -> 420 dmg * 3.1 inc dmg -> 1302 dmg

more damage from 100 int = 1302 / 1200 -> 1.085 -> 8.5%

You see how it became a lot less effective to scale int? Damege wise one int node is now only about 1/3 of the damge it was when int was scaled from 500 to 600.

Now lets take 28% increased damage instead of 100 int at 2000 int.

2000 int and 28% inc dmg -> 400 dmg * 3.28 inc damage = 1312 dmg

It is more than you would get from int. I mean even compared to the legacy version, you are better off taking two 14% increased damage nodes and one 9-10% es node.

I can post the full spread sheet in a couple of days but I really wanna play the build first. I can maybe make a guide in a seperate thread, because this build is unique and the one I'm doing has a much different skill tree anyway.

But you can just create your own spread sheet from the information I just posted, it is not that difficult.

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No. I'm not sure where you got 11% increased damage from and how you define it. When talking about increased damage poe is tricky, because wording is very important. And increased and more damage means smth. different.

Sure I can tell you that. So when using a formula its very tricky to get all the numbers right and there is so many sources that need to properly be accounted for, this build for example gets 30% area damage, 60% elemental damage, 79% spell damage and 18% cold damage which are important to include and then you need to correctly apply the multipliers.

The safest way I've found of doing this is to use GGG's formula, so I remove one of my jewel sockets and insert jewels until I find two that give me the same tooltip damage when either one is inserted


So for my current character with 2600 Int a 14 Int node will give me the same damage as a 10% damage node. The Int one however also providing mana, base ES, and %ES

Now at lower levels Int did give more damage then it does now but not by very much as both base damage and spell damage have been scaled very high and both columns have so much in them that the difference doesn't change as drastically as it would if you were to try and do the formula in a vacuum with both columns nearly empty

anyone? help please? what am I doing wrong with my build? I have low ES and low damage.

(previous post : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1697785/page/32#p13798927 where nobody bothered to reply)

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Disconaut wrote:

Hello,
sorry if this has already been posted, but I seem to have gotten the build completely wrong...

please see my STD char : I_EAT_SPARKLY_CANDY

i cannot afford a shavs, or the rings. this char was a bow user, re-specced him just now. spent all my jews 5S the staff, so cant socket the rest :D

no jewels coz i'm just trying out the spec... hope u understand.

anyhow, im stuck with low ES and low int and low dmg :/

I have 11 points and 9 respec points remaining.

icestorm tooltip is 1172.
total int is 850
total ES without any buffs is 1303
total ES after buffs is 2955 (discipline + 3 purities (purities are low level atm))

how can i improve my build?

I would suggest switch to another char capable of farming for chaos recipe for a bit, do unid ones since it gives 2c and get yourself a shav, as well as level your purities.

There is no reason not to 6s your staff if you can afford it.

Both staff and shav dont need to be 6linked.

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Disconaut wrote:

anyone? help please? what am I doing wrong with my build? I have low ES and low damage.

(previous post : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1697785/page/32#p13798927 where nobody bothered to reply)

respeccing a mid level character with half the gear and low gem levels isn't a good idea. I would play a different character until you have some currency to 6 socket the staff and buy the core perandus signet rings or if you felt like playing the character more focused then starting a new one where you can get a feel for the progress while getting the currency needed for the items to actually use this build. Starting a new character will be slower to get the currency though.

Your chest is incredibly low ES for that level even if you can't afford shavs yet. Because of your poor gear using the helmet with a pretty bad roll and this early instead of an ES piece also wouldn't be great for surviving

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HoLySnOwXX wrote:

Of course. I'll give you guys an example.

The damage of a skill can be calculated from this:
(average base damage) x (1 + sum of increased damage) x (product of more damage sources) / (casts per second)

[...]

But you can just create your own spread sheet from the information I just posted, it is not that difficult.

My mad spreadsheet skills resulted in this (Libreoffice ATM, therefore only screenshot):

http://imgur.com/a/RNANy

Some results:

Yes, more int gives diminishing returns, and does not "scales exponentially" (paraphrased :-) ).


Wafflet mentioned:

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So for my current character with 2600 Int a 14 Int node will give me the same damage as a 10% damage node

In my calculations, for 10% damage increase with 2600 int we need additional 33.5/2 = 16.7 int, which matches more or less with the 14 int.

To calculate the ES increase from INT is too complicated for me right now :-). But it seems a well rolled jewel could be similar or even better than a fertile mind/brute force jewel.


Also, 2400int + 155% inc damage (purely from tree and gear as it is now) results in ~2400 damage.
This is the same as 2000int + 300% inc damage.
Therefore, we could swap 200int into 145% inc damage (+all the lost ES nodes). 200INT are like... 12 nodes on the tree. A quick check reveals than we can get like 140% inc. damage from 12 nodes. But that's it, no ES, mana etc.

I'll have to investigate further. Cannot play this week sadly, so it's purely theorycrafting. Anyway, maybe its possible to squeeze out a bit more damage and also ES from optimized not-pure-int build, but not much imho.

Nice spreadsheet and the data is interesting.

The jewel that gives the lowest Int in the tree is the fertile mind one below pain attunment that gives 34 Int doubled into 68 Int

This jewel gives

- 23% worth of damage (my tooltip stays the same if I swap into a jewel with 23% damage on it)
- 13.6% increased ES
- Mana and some flat ES

The damage increase can by beaten by a jewel relatively easily but its hard to compete with that %ES number. Even with a jewel that had 3 damage mods and an ES roll you'd need to decide if it was worth losing some ES, some mana and icestorm duration by having you Int lowered.

In terms of changing the tree I'm totally open to suggestions but you gotta actually cut something to get something else. except for the jewels nothing in the tree is just int. Its all pathing towards things or notables that give Int along with other relevant stats. If you think that there is pure ES or damage nodes in the tree better then Int nodes then thats great. Just say which nodes you would cut and which ones you would get and then we can use math to directly compare both routes :)

Imho the diminishing returns of INT, as mentioned by HoLySnOwXX, is not as bad as it seems, especially with the synergy of Guardian. Stacking increased damage will have the same effect when reaching similar DPS numbers.

I, for myself, will stay on the path of int nodes :-).


I once made a ED marauder with stacking strength (1200str it was i think). Was by far not as good as this build. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1645190.

Hey there! Just wanted to say I've been enjoying the hell out of this build. I've made 5 or so different ones so far in Essence, and I'm having the most fun with this. But I did have a few questions!

First of all, I'm level 59 or so right now. Currently, my tooltip dps for Icestorm is hovering around 1500. Is this normal? I tried making the build once before, and then it felt like it was much stronger. Still 1-2 shotting most trash mobs in Merciless so far, but is there some point at which the dps skyrockets?

If you could perhaps take a look at my gear/tree and offer some advice I would highly appreciate it. Thanks again for this wonderful build!