Map drops - assessment of 2.0.0, and changes coming in 2.0.2

I posted this in another thread about maps, but I'll repost it here:

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I too am having this issue, I cannot sustain/get higher level maps... and it's not fun! For the record I'm mostly a solo player too(warbands).

So far in the last month I've done dozens of maps, and have only been able to do 3 level 75 maps and two 74 maps. All of which I got by accident from zana(currently level 6) missions, otherwise I'd be stuck in level 73 and lower maps.

Normally I wouldn't care, but I both want to see the new maps as well as play some of the higher ones which used to be my favorites! I probably won't be able to get full clears for the new 82 maps achievement in time for the leagues end either. :S

For me it's more fun to pick a map from stash I enjoy running at that time, for the build I play, and simply run it, than it is to hit a brick wall and be stuck in lower level maps I do not like(as it is now)!
Maps up till 80 in my opinion should not be rare at all(for softcore players like me), any map over 81 and higher should be a farming/loot game to even get and be hard to run(mostly for the hardcore/elite players). This would make everyone happy I think.

Edit: In short, I feel level 68-80 maps should be very easy to come by.

Snorkle pretty much nailed everything that needed to be said. I understand GGG's intent here...they want people to run harder maps and I am OK with that. The problem is, is that with just a little digging and me playing around with the new map system, it's not just about running harder maps. At its core - IMHO as always because people are rather too incompetent to understand what an opinion is - these changes were actually:

1. A currency sink tied directly to this game's economy that is the crux of almost every decision that is made regarding this game.

2. A way to slow down people getting to level 100, which as we have seen, hasn't worked at all.

3. Wanting to make the game more difficult and punishing overall when it comes to the mapping process.

4. The still painfully obvious over-reliance on RNG being the ultimate factor in whether or not you progress in the map system.

From my experience, and my experience alone with maps, I have found that little has changed overall. Sure, I am running harder maps and sinking Chiels, Alchs, and Chaos into them, but am I getting rewarded for doing so? ...Not really. I find myself caring little for gear drops and rather focusing on map drops...I have begun to care less and less about most of the loot in the game and maps are the biggest thing that I care about. No longer am I concerning myself about thinking of getting gear for alts, but rather am I going to at the very least 'break even' on what I put into maps, which most of the time is NO.

I consistently run 85%-100% quantity maps, but I do not push myself for more quantity than that. Why? Because in my experience the extra quantity means jack-diddly and all I accomplish is running harder maps that don't yield more for the trouble I have to put up with. Not only that, but I still cannot understand why GGG thinks level 100 is some sacred cow that should not be touched by the playerbase. Level 100 lost its sacred luster a long time ago and the notion that it should be some 'unobtainable goal' harkens back to what some might consider to be an archaic, Dodo age of ARPGs long gone. But even then those ARPGs didn't forcibly gate content behind much more than a long time sink...not so for POE.

Not only is it a time sink for most players, it's also a massive currency sink that in my eyes is little more than a huge waste of resources, especially with how much RNG gets crammed in with it. Never have I played any other game (not saying this is the only one out there that does this for those annoying nitpickers that want to argue everything) where BASIC ACCESS TO CONTENT IS GATED BEHIND AN IN-GAME PAYWALL. And I'm not talking optional areas, I'm talking what would be considered regular content that their characters should have access to. It's like GGG has this odd notion that if players are allowed access to level 100 they will suddenly begin to up and leave because 'They are done with that game'. While that might hold true for some, at least if they leave, they will leave with satisfaction and not with a bad taste in their mouth as I've seen people voicing not just here on the forums but amongst my friends in game.

It just leaves me scratching my head at how backwards this all seems to me, and it's something I've been saying for a long time about this game. If I build a character and I take my time planning it out, INVESTING not only into said time, buy currency for the gear, building a solid passive tree, get good gem combos, roll my flasks properly, and practice playing that character via content before maps...WHY AM I NOT ALLOWED ACCESS TO CONTENT THAT MY CHARACTER IS CAPABLE OF RUNNING? Shouldn't the harder map mods, mobs, bosses, death penalty, etc, etc, punish me if I overstep my bounds or make a bad mistake? Why is it that if I do everything right by what the game is asking me to do that I am still stuck getting bent over and taken without lube repeatedly by the RNG? If I can run 78+ maps because I put forth the time and effort to make a character/build that can run those maps, then I should be able to run them.

I know it's not an easy thing to strike a balance between risk vs. reward, but right now there isn't even anything close to that. It's starting to get there, but again, at its core the RNG is the ultimate deciding factor. I've run ~100% quantity maps in the 75-78 range and gotten absolutely no maps in return, or when I do get them, they're level 71 or lower. I shouldn't be seeing a Tropical Island drop in a 78 Precinct/Crematorium...that's just stupid in my eyes. I've run lesser quantity maps than that and gotten 3 +1s and a +2 from the boss, and it happens over, and over, and over again...the variance is just too much. And while maybe on a macro level and the whole 'Law of Large Numbers' will come into play overtime, the thing is...most players are not going to hit those levels, and even large groups of players won't hit that 'average' that GGG is probably looking for. People will and are getting fed up and simply leaving because of the frustrations they've been having and GGG has been so painfully slow to finally acknowledge.

I know I've likely rambled on a bit too much, but my overall point is, is that the map system still needs work. I do like the ideas that GGG has gone for, but if they keep clinging to RNG and focusing on currency sinks for their all-encompassing economy and odd balancing choices, they're going to keep losing people like they are. They need to let go of the notion that level 100 is some 'sacred cow', they need to let people have more appropriate level content for their characters to run, and they need to keep working on the notion that it's ok to reward people for doing harder content. Let the game and its rules and the like take care of those who overstep their bounds and try to run content that might be too much for them, etc, etc. And also to realize that their decisions ultimately are not stopping the higher echelons from achieving the goals that they do. Those players know the game cold, they have their connections and ability to put the game under their thumbs most of the time and will do as they please. All these recent decisions have done is punish those who are not at that caliber and makes them frustrated and leave...and that shouldn't be what GGG wants to have happen.

Guys I respect GGG! But... I don't believe to a single word anymore. They are lying or just "playing" with the numbers. Or they just don't saying anything. Look at this for example:

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1) Each map boss will have a flat 20% chance to drop an additional map. This will not apply multiple times for maps where a map has multiple bosses, nor will it double up when a map boss is twinned.

2) We are making adjustments to the way map levels are decided, that will reduce the odds of low tier maps being dropped.

Together these changes should more than triple the number of +2 maps players would be getting (as well as an improvement of +1 maps), compared to the beta.

What this means 20% flat chance? That can mean everything. If 1 mob have a chance for example of 0.01% to drop a map, the boss now have +20%? means 0.012%? Or additional means more than one map (lol)? Actually Qarl, can you answer me what is THE REAL chance for boss to drop +2?? But with real I mean the REAL chance. Because I don't understand it, and I'm sure like many others. It can't be 20% pure chance to drop a map right? It's looks more like 0.2% to me. And what means the triple +2? That is another lie. It's like a triple zero... still zero. I'm playing alot, mapping 20Q rare maps and I saw so far only few +2 drops. The +2 is just a myth. Practically I have maybe less than 5 times where I got +2 from boss. Again... i'm playing alot. I don't know maybe I'm just stupid and can't understand what they saying. But anyway... it's a lie to me.
When you watch statistics... just check how many of the maps are picked by the players. Because I pick maybe less than 5% of the maps dropped, because 95% of the maps are ******* low level.
I don't get it. Where is the problem to make the game playable with decent drop of maps between 75-79 and make 80-81-82 very very rare. If needed change the recipe to not be available to buy 80 map with 3 79. But let ppl play your game...

^ Tanakeah's comment is maybe the best comment I have read in a long time.

This game does way to many changes all the time. Yes the maps need to be fixed. All these little rule changes 1-2-3 weeks in, changes during races, change this that and the other, nerf drops, nerf drops, nerf drops... thank you for the good times, but I am done playing an unstable game. I can't bring myself to log in anymore.

Also the "PoE has stopped working" during Zana rots fucking sucks.

Lot of people say that maps are currency sink, and that they should be currency sink

Why is not crafting currency sink?

Crafting should be ultimate currency sink, eternals should drop as they did, vendors should sell eternals for like 10 ex each, people would craft then. Currency would disapear via crafting, economy would be liquid and MAPS COULD BE BALANCED AROUND SKILL and GEAR. They wouldnt have to be gated by rng that push people away from the game.

Good map system and crafting.....2 points for me and 0 for GGG :)

Tanakeah is right, so is Joleco. Along with many other posts I've read across this thread. The map system is truly fucked up post 2.0. Putting game content further behind luck/chance/RNG is maybe the worst concept ever thought of by a gaming company. Games are not supposed to be like going to Atlantic City or Las Vegas. If people want to actually gamble, they will go to the damn casinos to do that. People do not start their computers, open Steam.exe or POE.exe, and think to themselves, "hey, I feel like a gambler today let's see what map RNG I find".

If a build is able to manage content, if a player is skilled enough with how they have geared and prepared their character, why should GGG must do a cockblock to that? There is no reason for this, except to give the illusion of something being "difficult" when in actuality it is only "punishing/unrewarding". If devs don't have the wisdom to know the difference and act accordingly, then it is a shame and they no longer deserve to be devs.

I will post this vid again, and again, and again, until the message gets across. Heck, maybe I will add it to my sig as well. Lessons to live by for game companies!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

I will run only lower maps until patch, I don't want to waste any more that is for sure.

I still think not re-thinking the Zana nerf is a huge mistake. Not only is it a chance for a free map for players willing to invest the time and in some of the harder missions, risk, it is a nerf of one of the main selling points for the last EP.

Equivalent to saying bosses have a slightly higher chance of now dropping 5 or 6 L armor, so we are removing that option from Vorici's workbench.

Think about this. Does this make sense to you?

I don't understand why they assume the highest level of maps aren't being run because people are waiting to improve their character. The benefit a character receives from leveling at low levels might be significant, but when you've only got 10 more possible skill points to allocate, you certainly don't have any more game-changing nodes on your radar. At that point, the best way to improve is by hoarding currency and buying very expensive gear. Not running 80-82 maps IS improving your character for everyone except the very few who want to hit level 100. This is because the economic value of a map increases with its level, and eventually it becomes more efficient to sell than to reap the direct rewards. I used to hold onto 78 maps for the purpose of running them. Now I just hold them to sell. As with gear, however, the actual ability (including the desire of the hassle of a hardly functional trade system) to sell never really matches supply, so you have significant quantities of maps sitting in stashes not being run but never quite being sold either. This seems like a far more reasonable explanation for map hoarding if I am to assume people play the game at all like I do. Given that highly competitive progression is only one hybrid form of enjoyment of the game, it's reasonable to assume a lot of rational people fall in categories close to what I'm describing.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

see the thing with zana, look at what we are actually saying here, we dont want zana to be op. Having zana, after i have leveled her to 8, give me a 10 minute daily mission of game time suitable for my characters per day would be op? Think about that...

this is a game, are we not supposed to be playing the game? Oh no, zana is letting people play the game for 10 minutes, this is completely unacceptable! this is how warped the whole situation has become with this absurd mentality GGG have. Could they be any more ridiculous? Honestly? The right to have that 10 minutes appropriate game time should only come from lottery win type rng, if we just let people have that 10 minutes per day the whole game is ruined! What if they find another 10 minutes of proper game time inside that 10 minutes? Where would it end? Players might get really lucky and be able to play for hours. God forbid right?

Seriously tho guys? Is this seriously what its come to? Every other game company in the world is desperate for players to play their game and GGG release a free to play game, invite the world then set about finding ways to stop them playing their game.


Have I fallen through some wormhole into crazy land here or something? am I the one crazy guy in this dimension that thinks this is absolutely mental?

Spot on. These types of nerf's (zana is one of them) just discourage players from playing. What could possibly be the logic behind discouraging your player base from playing the game? Then again, a lack of logic motivates many of the beta/2.0 changes that were implemented. "Socket pressure" and "punishing gameplay" come to mind - for those of you not well versed in the POE patch notes these are taken directly from GGG's "logical" reasons for implementing changes that are universally panned and hated for good reason. Reducing map drops also falls into this category.

I'm certain the buff to map drops is coming in response to a falling off of players and, subsequently, a falling off in donations so let me just say: Get the game back on track and we'll start playing/donating again. It's simple. When people like the game, they're happy to throw money at you. Glad to see the Beta and 2.0 release bought you a new office, but if you'd like to keep paying your, probably greatly increased, rent I would recommend you stop "punishing" your non-"elite" players with some content that is intended for everyone to enjoy.