Viper Strike

Chaos nodes should increase the damage of the converted physical damage of viper strike and the DOTs since both are versions of chaos damage. However, that is just 25% converted initially and then the DOTs, vs if you scale physical, you will scale the entire physical so that a larger number is converted to chaos, and a large number is then converted to the DOTs poison.


While they made Viper strike better, it is still being used more like a boss killer, than an actual build (most of the time). Since it can fully be scaled as physical, people are using things like blade fall, or spectral throw as every day skill and viper just for boss. The fix to this is to make viper like it use to be and that is a fully chaos damaging attack, with chaos, DOT, poison nodes, increase "attack damage", and empower, and the new chaos/dots support as the only real way to increase it's damage. That way, people can't simply use it as a boss killer, but actually have to spec into the build. For example, someone who is building a bow build can't just switch into caustic arrow and have that skill be viable. this is what Viper should be.

Either way, I like the chaos, poison emphasis GGG is going for now. I wonder if we can fully convert all of the physical damage into chaos?? as of right now, lightbane, that claw, and viper strike itself is the only way and that at maximum only yields 75% converted.

I think the skill will never make sense the way it is now because of the fact that it all scales from the physical damage. I could literally again take my vs build and use puncture, blade fall, (or contagion honestly, since I have no pure phys nodes) and it will probably clear faster despite being designed for vs. Because in the passive tree and on support gems and gear, physical damage still scales it better than chaos. Same problem vs had before the latest rework.

And tbh I'm not sure I have a solution for this that doesn't involve going back to the old vs. Adding hybrid phys/chaos nodes to shadow tree REALLY helped make it *viable*, but it still doesn't fix the core of the problem (being able to take a vs build and clear faster with other skills using the same build) and is more of a bandaid fix.

At the very least, those nodes really enabled some melee builds that weren't possible before and some other melee buffs are making this viable, so progress is being made.

Question:

Similar to how Frenzy will only generate 1 charge if you use it in a bow with GMP (ie, once per attack):

Does Viper Strike only generate one stack of poison per use of the skill with Multistrike? Or do all three hits consecutively stack poison?

It's difficult to tell due to no orbs =(

And there's been some weird exceptions to rules lately (Ice Crash = no Multistrike) so I want to clarify the mechanic here.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

I think the skill will never make sense the way it is now because of the fact that it all scales from the physical damage. I could literally again take my vs build and use puncture, blade fall, (or contagion honestly, since I have no pure phys nodes) and it will probably clear faster despite being designed for vs. Because in the passive tree and on support gems and gear, physical damage still scales it better than chaos. Same problem vs had before the latest rework.

And tbh I'm not sure I have a solution for this that doesn't involve going back to the old vs. Adding hybrid phys/chaos nodes to shadow tree REALLY helped make it *viable*, but it still doesn't fix the core of the problem (being able to take a vs build and clear faster with other skills using the same build) and is more of a bandaid fix.

At the very least, those nodes really enabled some melee builds that weren't possible before and some other melee buffs are making this viable, so progress is being made.

Looks like I may have been incorrect here, added chaos + void manipulation seem to be the undisputed best two first support gems for VS, which will change a lot of things if that is true. Needs math though, someone pls do math for me :( Im busy over here.

It's a shame, really... but I think the poison support gem makes viper strike obsolete.

The logic behind that idea is:
Viper strike without the poison is kinda lackluster.
Poison support boosts the dps of the poison VS does by 120%
however
Double strike (for example) is kinda alright without poison, better than viper strike without poison.
poison support gives it 100% poison and boosts that poison by 120%.

So, the problem I think is quite simple.
double strike + poison > viper strike + poison
and if you don't use poison with viper strike you get weaker poison than with double strike, and the reason you want VS is cos of the poison.

the only advantage of VS is the much longer duration on poison, but there are only a few things in PoE that lasts longer than 2s when focused.

"

Idioticus wrote:

It's a shame, really... but I think the poison support gem makes viper strike obsolete.

The logic behind that idea is:
Viper strike without the poison is kinda lackluster.
Poison support boosts the dps of the poison VS does by 120%
however
Double strike (for example) is kinda alright without poison, better than viper strike without poison.
poison support gives it 100% poison and boosts that poison by 120%.

So, the problem I think is quite simple.
double strike + poison > viper strike + poison
and if you don't use poison with viper strike you get weaker poison than with double strike, and the reason you want VS is cos of the poison.

the only advantage of VS is the much longer duration on poison, but there are only a few things in PoE that lasts longer than 2s when focused.

Nop
according to poe wiki;
there is a huge difference.
viper poison has a differ way of stacking, overriding system.
Just poison gem make poison status for 2s,
but viper poison has endless duration by consist hit.
And even stackable, the real stacking system.

Am I right?

"

kaiserhose1 wrote:

"

Idioticus wrote:

It's a shame, really... but I think the poison support gem makes viper strike obsolete.

The logic behind that idea is:
Viper strike without the poison is kinda lackluster.
Poison support boosts the dps of the poison VS does by 120%
however
Double strike (for example) is kinda alright without poison, better than viper strike without poison.
poison support gives it 100% poison and boosts that poison by 120%.

So, the problem I think is quite simple.
double strike + poison > viper strike + poison
and if you don't use poison with viper strike you get weaker poison than with double strike, and the reason you want VS is cos of the poison.

the only advantage of VS is the much longer duration on poison, but there are only a few things in PoE that lasts longer than 2s when focused.

Nop
according to poe wiki;
there is a huge difference.
viper poison has a differ way of stacking, overriding system.
Just poison gem make poison status for 2s,
but viper poison has endless duration by consist hit.
And even stackable, the real stacking system.

Am I right?

"

Idioticus wrote:

the only advantage of VS is the much longer duration on poison, but there are only a few things in PoE that lasts longer than 2s when focused.

You can't poison someone twice with a single hit, so having the poison support gem has half its effect lost. And I already addressed the duration advantage.

As it stands VS:
Scales off Phys/chaos, which has the worst equipment scaling
Chaos conversion hurts more then helps, phys does less due to armor formula and further reduces the nerfed life leech
Only stacks 1 poison per hit, thus no synergy with other poison sources (nodes, equipment, support)

My personal experience:
Low hit damage if pure phys/chaos, losing safety from stuns
Too slow for AoEing trash with melee splash (completely worthless in groups)
Since poison nodes are in the DEX part of the tree I went evasion melee, which only made life worse
Marginally get by with crit+Binos, but I could do better with almost any other skill

Maybe VS would be viable if one or more applied:
1. Converted nothing to chaos or everything
2. Applied poison from ALL damage sources (letting VS compete with other ele-melee)
3. MORE then 1 poison stack per hit occurred (allowing poison builds that USE uniques and supports)
4. Poison damage increased each level from 11% -> 30% (at least do a better job poisoning then other sources)
5. Debuff damage or speed on target (1% per VS stack or something), changing VS to a tanking active instead of a failed alternate DPS option
Extra poison duration could be removed (back to default 2s) to balance out the overall damage

"

Euzaron wrote:

As it stands VS:
Scales off Phys/chaos, which has the worst equipment scaling
Chaos conversion hurts more then helps, phys does less due to armor formula and further reduces the nerfed life leech
Only stacks 1 poison per hit, thus no synergy with other poison sources (nodes, equipment, support)

My personal experience:
Low hit damage if pure phys/chaos, losing safety from stuns
Too slow for AoEing trash with melee splash (completely worthless in groups)
Since poison nodes are in the DEX part of the tree I went evasion melee, which only made life worse
Marginally get by with crit+Binos, but I could do better with almost any other skill

Maybe VS would be viable if one or more applied:
1. Converted nothing to chaos or everything
2. Applied poison from ALL damage sources (letting VS compete with other ele-melee)
3. MORE then 1 poison stack per hit occurred (allowing poison builds that USE uniques and supports)
4. Poison damage increased each level from 11% -> 30% (at least do a better job poisoning then other sources)
5. Debuff damage or speed on target (1% per VS stack or something), changing VS to a tanking active instead of a failed alternate DPS option
Extra poison duration could be removed (back to default 2s) to balance out the overall damage

You guys need to listen to what this guy is saying, this is exactly my experience with viper strike. I had high hopes that the change to viper strike would make it viable and I literally ended up in exactly the same place.

Only difference is I have no idea how you even got a bino with this build, did you farm with a different build? I could barely afford trash upgrades with the "income" I got farming with this build and I had to use every defensive buff that exists in poe, in every fight, (slowing the clear speed massively) before still dying to bone Talisman anyways. What a joke.

Here's the problem you guys (ggg) are missing.

In order to be viable, this gem needs to do more damage than every ranged skill to account for the fact it is melee, meaning you have to approach each target, if you want it to match clear speed. Fails on that point. (Or it can apply a movement buff)
It also needs to do EXTRA more damage than every instant damage skill, to account for it being a dot that you have to wait for while other builds kill instantly.
It also needs to apply fortify (as does every melee skill) to account for the damage you'll be eating while you are in range of attacking your target.
It needs DOUBLE fortify because you'll be eating hits while the target continues beating on you while you wait for the dot to finish them off, whereas other melee skills only eat damage until the enemy dies from the first hit or however many it takes (usually two or three tops).
It needs something to make up for the fact that half the damage this skill deals cannot be leeched.
It needs something to make up for the fact that the shadow tree defenses are shitty suicide evasion mechanics and physical spells exist (or fix evasion).
It needs something to make up for the poor interacting with its own support gems.
It needs something to make up for its lack of support from gear.

So, at a minimum you're looking at a movement speed buff, double/triple fortify, double/triple it's damage, add in leech on the dot, and allow multiple stacks of poison to apply at once, as well as better gear support. JUST to make it comparable to every ranged and caster build in poe that face rolls the game. Maybe that hopefully puts how bad this gem STILL is into perspective.