Freezing Pulse

Fair enough. I admit that It´s the best melee skill atm.
It's really fun to use, but the damage fall off at longer ranges is big enough for balance.
People should stop asking for nerfs, just buff synergy of Melee skills with support gems.
Not even LA needs a nerf. Not even the LS+MS nerf was needed.
IGN: Nyxea
I'm not sure what the most elegant way to attack this is. Freezing Pulse is just too strong right now--for a number of reasons.

I'll just list the characteristics of it and address each of them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Damage: 194-291 at level 20 (DPS 373.08 base)
The damage itself seems to be balanced compared to other damaging spells like Fireball and Spark. The difference is it casts faster than Fireball and it's more reliable than Spark. The damage by itself might be fine, but it is problematic when combined with everything else the spell does.



Casting Speed: 0.65
I think this is the core of the problem. It might not be so obvious, because it indirectly contributes to Freezing Pulse being overpowered.

I've done some calculations on my own characters to figure out how Casting Speed Increases are handled. Much the way that Increased Critical Strike Chance is calculated, Increased Casting Speed uses a base coefficient and multiplies against it, then adds the result to the base.

So the way that a casting speed of 0.65 is calculated is:
(1/0.65) = 1.538
So 1.538 is the number of casts per second that Freezing Pulse is capable of at baseline, and it's the number used to multiply against any casting speed increases. What this results in is a spell that scales better with casting speed increases than other spells like Fireball and Ice Spear, which have base casting speeds of 0.85 and cast 1.176 times per second.

A 6% increase to 1.538 is more than a 6% increase to 1.176. So the balance between these spells (which is fine early game) diverges late game, and you end up with Freezing Pulse being cast incredibly quickly. I'm sure the developers are aware that handling things like this makes things hard to balance, but it also makes things much more interesting for the players.

This super fast spam casting is responsible for one of the reasons this spell is overpowered. Clusters of enemies get locked down by being frozen either by procs or crits. A Freezing Pulse build can have very low crit chance, and even a low Chance to Freeze, and still drop an endless succession of freezes because of how rapidly it puts out spells. This might not be a problem with a normal spell, but it has 100% chance to pierce, so when the first hit freezes it will freeze everything else it contacts.



Mana Cost: 23
It's worth recognizing that reducing the casting speed will reduce the amount of mana being expended. That might let Freezing Pulse users invest in other areas like more damage which could undo a portion of the balance. If the casting time were reduced the mana cost should probably be increased. (Ice Spear 35 at 0.85, Fireball 32 at 0.85, Spark 29 at 0.65)



100% Chance to Pierce
This would be fine by itself, but not combined with everything else this spell is capable of. Simply removing the 100% chance to pierce would probably balance this spell, but I don't think that's the best way to do it. The 100% chance to pierce makes the spell unique and interesting, and that's a good enough reason to keep it in when there are other things that can be changed.



Size and shape of the projectile
It hits a wide area in front of the caster like some other abilities. That's fine considering that the projectile dissipates after a very brief travel time. The issue is that when paired with Lesser Multiple Projectiles (or Greater, which is infrequently used) you end up having a giant, extremely wide cone projecting from your character. It goes from an AoE spell of typical size to a blanket cleaving attack which hits everything you want it to without needing to change position. I don't think it's worth changing this, because players would overcome it by simply playing more skillfully and aiming more carefully.



Diminishing damage and disappearance over time
This is clearly supposed to be the limiting factor that balances the spell, but the dynamics of the spell simply don't let it. Because the spell does the damage it does, at the rate it does, to the number of targets it does, and CC's like it does, it doesn't have the effect it's supposed to. Faster Projectiles (inherent in the quality modifier even) and tanky builds like the Righteous Fire Templar (which I find incredibly awesome and possibly the most interesting build) diminish the effect of having a spell that has damage falloff and a shorter effective range. Getting up close just isn't a problem.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


So I don't think changing the unique characteristics of the spell is a good way to balance it. I think the spirit of the spell should remain intact. The chance to pierce, the size, the dissipation, those are things I think should stay untouched. I think increasing the cast time would bring the damage output in line and also reign in the ability to put out huge damage while simultaneously crowd controlling.

When a strategy in a game is wildly popular--especially when there are so many other options as we are gifted with in Path of Exile--it's usually because it's too powerful. That's a strong indicator in and of itself, on top of the reasoned arguments of course.

I wrote this for players and the GGG developers to read. I apologize to everyone for it being a lot of text.
Last edited by Cosmusik on Apr 29, 2013, 1:18:54 AM
"
Cosmusik wrote:
I'm not sure what the most elegant way to attack this is. Freezing Pulse is just too strong right now--for a number of reasons.

I'll just list the characteristics of it and address each of them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Damage: 194-291 at level 20 (DPS 373.08 base)
The damage itself seems to be balanced compared to other damaging spells like Fireball and Spark. The difference is it casts faster than Fireball and it's more reliable than Spark. The damage by itself might be fine, but it is problematic when combined with everything else the spell does.



Casting Speed: 0.65
I think this is the core of the problem. It might not be so obvious, because it indirectly contributes to Freezing Pulse being overpowered.

I've done some calculations on my own characters to figure out how Casting Speed Increases are handled. Much the way that Increased Critical Strike Chance is calculated, Increased Casting Speed uses a base coefficient and multiplies against it, then adds the result to the base.

So the way that a casting speed of 0.65 is calculated is:
(1/0.65) = 1.538
So 1.538 is the number of casts per second that Freezing Pulse is capable of at baseline, and it's the number used to multiply against any casting speed increases. What this results in is a spell that scales better with casting speed increases than other spells like Fireball and Ice Spear, which have base casting speeds of 0.85 and cast 1.176 times per second.

A 6% increase to 1.538 is more than a 6% increase to 1.176. So the balance between these spells (which is fine early game) diverges late game, and you end up with Freezing Pulse being cast incredibly quickly. I'm sure the developers are aware that handling things like this makes things hard to balance, but it also makes things much more interesting for the players.

This super fast spam casting is responsible for one of the reasons this spell is overpowered. Clusters of enemies get locked down by being frozen either by procs or crits. A Freezing Pulse build can have very low crit chance, and even a low Chance to Freeze, and still drop an endless succession of freezes because of how rapidly it puts out spells. This might not be a problem with a normal spell, but it has 100% chance to pierce, so when the first hit freezes it will freeze everything else it contacts.



Mana Cost: 23
It's worth recognizing that reducing the casting speed will reduce the amount of mana being expended. That might let Freezing Pulse users invest in other areas like more damage which could undo a portion of the balance. If the casting time were reduced the mana cost should probably be increased. (Ice Spear 35 at 0.85, Fireball 32 at 0.85, Spark 29 at 0.65)



100% Chance to Pierce
This would be fine by itself, but not combined with everything else this spell is capable of. Simply removing the 100% chance to pierce would probably balance this spell, but I don't think that's the best way to do it. The 100% chance to pierce makes the spell unique and interesting, and that's a good enough reason to keep it in when there are other things that can be changed.



Size and shape of the projectile
It hits a wide area in front of the caster like some other abilities. That's fine considering that the projectile dissipates after a very brief travel time. The issue is that when paired with Lesser Multiple Projectiles (or Greater, which is infrequently used) you end up having a giant, extremely wide cone projecting from your character. It goes from an AoE spell of typical size to a blanket cleaving attack which hits everything you want it to without needing to change position. I don't think it's worth changing this, because players would overcome it by simply playing more skillfully and aiming more carefully.



Diminishing damage and disappearance over time
This is clearly supposed to be the limiting factor that balances the spell, but the dynamics of the spell simply don't let it. Because the spell does the damage it does, at the rate it does, to the number of targets it does, and CC's like it does, it doesn't have the effect it's supposed to. Faster Projectiles (inherent in the quality modifier even) and tanky builds like the Righteous Fire Templar (which I find incredibly awesome and possibly the most interesting build) diminish the effect of having a spell that has damage falloff and a shorter effective range. Getting up close just isn't a problem.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


So I don't think changing the unique characteristics of the spell is a good way to balance it. I think the spirit of the spell should remain intact. The chance to pierce, the size, the dissipation, those are things I think should stay untouched. I think increasing the cast time would bring the damage output in line and also reign in the ability to put out huge damage while simultaneously crowd controlling.

When a strategy in a game is wildly popular--especially when there are so many other options as we are gifted with in Path of Exile--it's usually because it's too powerful. That's a strong indicator in and of itself, on top of the reasoned arguments of course.

I wrote this for players and the GGG developers to read. I apologize to everyone for it being a lot of text.


this. then EK next
Freezing Pulse is balanced because:


1) It has a really high mana cost per second. It could be less at later levels 18-20

2) People can stack cold resist 85+, making FP damage very small. I think it needs more damage mid levels.

3) FP has a low crit chance, with no extra base crit damage. i.e. Ice Spear

4) FP has very very low ranged damage, and it does really nothing even with 20% Quality Gem vs a ranged enemy.

5) FP is the only viable end game witch spell

"

Skills that do way more damage than FP:

EK (At lvl 20 FP does 290 dmg, compared to EK which is 790+ damage.)
Puncture
Lightning Arrow
Bear Traps


I think Freezing Pulse is perfectly balanced. Probably because it is one of the older skills in the game. If anything FP needs more damage at lower levels, Possibly less mana cost at higher levels 18-20.

IGN: lVlage (96 Witch)
Last edited by lVlage on May 1, 2013, 7:50:26 PM
Freezing Pulse isn't OP but happens to be the best spell in the game?
"
YellowMage wrote:
Freezing Pulse isn't OP but happens to be the best spell in the game?


I think DPS wise EK is the "best" spell in the game actually. At lvl 20 it has a top end damage of 790, compared to FP at 290, that 500 more base damage! nuts. Also EK damage doesn't fade away vs ranged enemies like FP does.
IGN: lVlage (96 Witch)
Last edited by lVlage on May 1, 2013, 7:53:51 PM
Per-hit, EK wins out. Of course, FP also hits five times (at half strength) due to GMP and casts a whole ton faster. Both Spells are incredible, both for different reasons :)
Ethereal Knives also happens to be the most mana intensive spell by a large margin. An effective linked Arc is somewhat close. EK needs to do more damage to bypass armour scaling the damage. It's cast speed is also slow and doesn't make it as good as Freezing Pulse for defensive situations like using it for Life Leech. EK's default range is also poor, where Faster Projectiles is compulsory which isn't for FP. Chain makes EK amazing, but it crushes the damage you do but the trade off is that it extends the range of EK and hits a crap load of times into a tight pack of enemies that it could very well destroy them in one cast.

I say EK is amazing, but it's one skill I say needs a 5 link to "fix" it's many drawbacks which I still put it up for consideration to be buffed. FP does not.
"
YellowMage wrote:
Ethereal Knives also happens to be the most mana intensive spell by a large margin. An effective linked Arc is somewhat close. EK needs to do more damage to bypass armour scaling the damage. It's cast speed is also slow and doesn't make it as good as Freezing Pulse for defensive situations like using it for Life Leech. EK's default range is also poor, where Faster Projectiles is compulsory which isn't for FP. Chain makes EK amazing, but it crushes the damage you do but the trade off is that it extends the range of EK and hits a crap load of times into a tight pack of enemies that it could very well destroy them in one cast.

I say EK is amazing, but it's one skill I say needs a 5 link to "fix" it's many drawbacks which I still put it up for consideration to be buffed. FP does not.


I think all your points can be said the same for FP.

FP needs to do more damage to bypass 85+ resist etc.
Ek can do fine with life leech, so can FP.
FP and EK are both high cost mana per second costs
Both FP and EK ranges are very low. However when using faster projectiles EK does more damage to ranged targets. FP does more damage to closer.

Anyway good points. They are very similar skills. And both good for different reasons. I think FP is fine. I think EK damage needs to be toned down a little bit. I've played both levels 80+.
IGN: lVlage (96 Witch)
Last edited by lVlage on May 2, 2013, 12:42:13 AM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info