Cleave

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Mark_GGG wrote:

From what I've gathered, many people have taken a liking to ground slam from watching Kripp use it, but people are still using and enjoying Cleave, and it's still good at what it does. It has shorter range, but wider spread, making it much better than ground slam when you're surrounded.

GS has been superior long before Kripp was even in the picture.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Both weapons calculate damage (if they hit), and one hit is applied combining both sets of damage if both hit, same as dual strike. You hit once, but that hit deals both weapon's damage.

So does that mean that those attacks effectively allow bypassing armor by landing fewer, harder hits?
Not that there was much armor on mobs.
Damn, i want that for dual wands.^^

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UnDeaD_CyBorG wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Both weapons calculate damage (if they hit), and one hit is applied combining both sets of damage if both hit, same as dual strike. You hit once, but that hit deals both weapon's damage.

Damn, i want that for dual wands.^^

Cleave doesn't make much sense for wands, but Dual Strike would be an incredible option, as the mechanics would make great use of the wand elemental damage tech we have at our disposal.

Edit: Off topic, but as an after thought, it actually seems like the wand portion of the Witch tree was designed to be used with Dual Strike. Shame it's not available as a wand skill ;)

Personal feedback about this skill after extensive usage:

- It's inferior to all other AoE skills for 2 reasons:
1. Mana cost is high for a starting skill
2. Mana cost increase per level is out of sync
3. Damage effectiveness of 70% really debilitates the skill's effectiveness

Compared with Dual Strike or Double Strike, this skill leaves a lot to be desired.

1. 9 mana cost per skill for a lvl 1 requirement skill is a lot. Personally I wouldn't mind the mana cost IF the skill wasn't as weak as it is now, with a 70% damage effectiveness.

2. After lvl 1, the skill immediately jumps in mana cost to 10 mana at lvl 2...??? Why, out of all the melee skills, should such treatment be given?

3. 70% damage effectiveness means more hits needed to kill, but compounded with disproportionate rising mana costs, it makes it less effective compared to some other AoE melee skills.

I understand that drawing relationships with other sword skills or AoE melee skills can be a bit tenuous, but if a comparison had to be made, comparing Cleave with Dual Strike and Double Strike than to 2hander skills like Ground Slam and Sweep is more apt.

One thing can be done is to keep the 9 mana cost at lvl 1, but let it remain 9 mana for the next 3 levels. So something like this:

Lvl - mana
1 - 9
2 - 9
3 - 9
4 - 10
5 - 10
6 - 10
7 - 10
8 - 11
9 - 11
10 - 11
11 - 11
12 - 12
13 - 12
14 - 12
15 - 12
16 - 13
17 - 13
18 - 13
19 - 13
20 - 14

This will help keep mana management manageable until Blood Magic can be attained while being reasonable.

All area skills have a reduced damage effectiveness, it is necessary for them to be balanced.

And the reduced physical damage while dual wielding can be overcome by just leveling the gem.

But i do agree the mana cost progression is a bit off, that stays a number for 3 levels seems nice, gives people time to get gear and adjust passives for the next time it levels thus keeping it sustainable.

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VictorDoom wrote:

All area skills have a reduced damage effectiveness, it is necessary for them to be balanced.

And the reduced physical damage while dual wielding can be overcome by just leveling the gem.

But i do agree the mana cost progression is a bit off, that stays a number for 3 levels seems nice, gives people time to get gear and adjust passives for the next time it levels thus keeping it sustainable.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing that 70% damage effectiveness upped to 75%, or even 80%. While not dealing the same damage a single-target skill would do, it's be marginally more effective and being able to get more bang for buck without overpowering it. This goes for any AoE skill, not just Cleave. Cleave I wanted to point out because because it's main issue is its wonky (read: unbalanced) mana progression per level.

Why are you comparing an aoe skill to single target skills Islidox O_o

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Slanderbot wrote:

Why are you comparing an aoe skill to single target skills Islidox O_o

Ground Slam and Sweep use different weapons than cleave, and 2hand maces and staves are not known for overwhelming speed. Skills like Double Strike, Dual Strike, and Cleave are associated with axes and swords and attack speed. The mana usage is obviously greater and more comparable in this case than GS/LSlam. Lightning Strike is something different altogether.

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Islidox wrote:

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Slanderbot wrote:

Why are you comparing an aoe skill to single target skills Islidox O_o

Ground Slam and Sweep use different weapons than cleave, and 2hand maces and staves are not known for overwhelming speed. Skills like Double Strike, Dual Strike, and Cleave are associated with axes and swords and attack speed. The mana usage is obviously greater and more comparable in this case than GS/LSlam. Lightning Strike is something different altogether.

Actually lightning strike would be a better comparison than single target skills. AoE skills by design are going to have penalties on damage and/or mana cost because of the fact they can hit more than one target, comparing a skill that can hit like 10targets(assuming they're really packed and not using concentrated) vs a skill that can only ever hit one target isn't a good point of comparison when you try to compare their costs, sorry.

I don't disagree that Cleave leveling is questionnable, but I'd say it's more due to the lack of damage from increasing it than the mana cost, the mana cost should be expensive since it's an aoe. I think it should gain like 2% increased aoe per level on top of the damage increase, which would both make it a lot better at aoeing and make the mana cost increase more justified.