(3.2) [Lighty] 2H RT Cyclone: Dope for Beast League & Lab™

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Peterlerock wrote:

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

You don't. Even with maximum investment in increased damage via Endurance Charges, Juggernaut is flat out weaker (offensively) than Slayer/Berserker. That's the trade-off for automatic endurance charge generation, inordinate damage mitigation, and status immunity.

That said, survivability is much more of a limitation than killing speed. While it may take longer, you only need to be able to deal so much damage. A properly built Starforge, Brutality, BloodMagic (passive), CoH Vuln, with 9-10 Endurance Charges Juggernaut is just about invincible. It may not be a facetanking boss killer like Vaal Pact Berserker, but it's extremely smooth Uber Lab/map farming, with immunity to almost every status effect in the game.

Thank you both for your answers. I'm still quite torn between slayer and juggernaut. I'll need to think about it some more. The whole immunity to bleed thing seems quite irrelevant to me, i always have a flask that removes bleed with me and i don't think i have ever had any problems with it.
How long does the slayer leech last once you are at full health and stop hitting things?

What lvl Cwdt is optimal for using blood rage + molten shell? Is it right to max increased duration every lvl up in this spec?

I run jugger with bloodmagic-gems... What kind of getting endurance-charges will be better for me? Trying now endurance cry, not liked to stop spinning on every pack of mobs. Is it really no good to make Hatred+Hoa and Blasphemy + W Mark incl. enlighten gem?

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Well, yes, you can play Slayer with Kaom's Roots for the Juggernaut effect of Unstoppable-ish. Or you can play a Juggernaut with Death's Door for the Slayer effect of being immune to bleed.

Juggernaut, imo, still comes out on top. Death's Door bleed immunity is always on and Kaom's Roots miss a line from Unstoppable that has value with Temporal Chains and Chill effects.

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

That wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about the specific case of bleed immunity and Unstoppable. You can get both from items, more or less.

I never said Slayer sucks or has no value. Slayer is one of my favourite ever Ascendancy classes and is probably the best for melee 2H builds all-round. That said, I've played it so much that I want to try something else and Juggernaut has a niche to fill, even if it's not min/max potential.

This...

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Archimtiros wrote:

A properly built (...) Juggernaut is just about invincible. It may not be a facetanking boss killer like Vaal Pact Berserker, but it's extremely smooth Uber Lab/map farming, with immunity to almost every status effect in the game.

That's what I wanted to say.
A Jugg is pretty strong against physical damage.
Maybe even the best class out there.

But a Slayer / VP Berserker is strong against anything and everything the game throws at you.
Because they don't care what sort of damage they take, they just leech it back.

That's why I'd put them way above Jugg in terms of survivability.
They facetank stuff he could never facetank.

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Archimtiros wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

You don't. Even with maximum investment in increased damage via Endurance Charges, Juggernaut is flat out weaker (offensively) than Slayer/Berserker. That's the trade-off for automatic endurance charge generation, inordinate damage mitigation, and status immunity.

That said, survivability is much more of a limitation than killing speed. While it may take longer, you only need to be able to deal so much damage. A properly built Starforge, Brutality, BloodMagic (passive), CoH Vuln, with 9-10 Endurance Charges Juggernaut is just about invincible. It may not be a facetanking boss killer like Vaal Pact Berserker, but it's extremely smooth Uber Lab/map farming, with immunity to almost every status effect in the game.

My thoughts exactly Archimtiros. That's exactly the reason I'm going Juggernaut. Starforge, Brutality, Blood Magic, though I'll go for Blasphemy Vuln with Determination wearing Brass Dome. Rolling through maps and Lab like a good ol' M1 Abrams.

You left nothing else for me to elaborate in regards to your post. ;)

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Gunteraz wrote:

Thank you both for your answers. I'm still quite torn between slayer and juggernaut. I'll need to think about it some more. The whole immunity to bleed thing seems quite irrelevant to me, i always have a flask that removes bleed with me and i don't think i have ever had any problems with it.
How long does the slayer leech last once you are at full health and stop hitting things?

Slayer leech is something some people don't fully understand. It's not as OP as it seems on first sight.

While the wording is exactly true, Leech doesn't STOP on full health, Leech also doesn't START on full health. And that's an important detail.

If you are cycloning happily and you're getting really good at avoiding taking any hits, you'll stop yourself from gaining leech. Also, if you take say, 1% of your health in damage, 1 hit will leech you back to full, but that's won't reach the leech cap. You will not however, stack more leech upon that to reach the cap because you're already at full health again. It will just run its course until it wears off, or continue healing if you take another hit before it wears off. Does that make enough sense to you? :/

Bottom line is this: You do NOT leech at full health. If you leech while below full health, that leech will not STOP until it naturally wears off and will continue even if you take damage again while it's in effect. It will NOT become "stronger" while at full health, because you do not leech. Essentially, you need to take damage constantly to get the real value from that leech node.

Lorewise kind of in line with the whole idea behind a Slayer. Focused on slaying that rare/boss at any cost and do not stop until it's dead. Where as Berserker is more like the reckless abandon class that throws all caution to the wind for a massive increase in damage potential.

If it didn't work the way I described above, Slayer would be massively OP. I totally get why GGG made it work this way. That said, it's still an immensely powerful node, especially with all the increased leech rate that Slayer gets.

This may be a stupid question, and I'm sorry if it's been answered (I couldn't find a way to search replies), but how do you generate endurance charges with this build?
I can see the Juggernaut ascendancy path gives a 30% chance on hit to generate a charge, but what if you choose another path and/or class?
I just can't see an ability that helps generate them, yet one of the utilities is immortal all. Am I just misunderstanding the use of immortal call here? (do you actually not need endurance charges?)

I'm clearly just a bit confused and happily admit to being a noob so any help here would be amazing, cheers!

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Noomnahor wrote:

how do you generate endurance charges with this build?

Use Enduring Cry regularly.

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Noomnahor wrote:

This may be a stupid question, and I'm sorry if it's been answered (I couldn't find a way to search replies), but how do you generate endurance charges with this build?
I can see the Juggernaut ascendancy path gives a 30% chance on hit to generate a charge, but what if you choose another path and/or class?
I just can't see an ability that helps generate them, yet one of the utilities is immortal all. Am I just misunderstanding the use of immortal call here? (do you actually not need endurance charges?)

I'm clearly just a bit confused and happily admit to being a noob so any help here would be amazing, cheers!

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Xavathos wrote:

Number of ways to work Endurance charges in.

One is playing Juggernaut and putting your face in between angry things and what they are angry at.

Another is the manual use of Warlord's Mark. Not recommended.

You would be better off putting it on a blasphemy, but you'll need Enlighten 4 (or 2 in Atziri's Disfavour) to be able to use a Herald and Hatred still with a curse. Even then you need Blood Magic support on Cyclone because you'd have 99% reserved mana.

Alternatively you could run Curse on Hit with a Herald of Ice (Ash doesn't work because it doesn't hit) or Cast When Damage Taken setups with Warlord's Mark to gain endurance charges, as suggested by Archimtiros. The latter is the best option in this case. Herald of Ice has no place in this build.

Another very common and easy way is Enduring Cry. Very easy to spam, nifty short boost to life regen as a bonus. Good on bosses too, where the curse will fail you unless it has many adds.

One more alternative is the use of Tidebreaker (2H mace). This weapon will link the support gem Endurance charge on melee stun to your cyclone for free, with 10% inc phy dmg per charge as a bonus.

I believe Lighty said on stream that he was going to be using Tidebreaker, which would explain the lack of charge generators in his guide.

There are other gear related ways to gain charges, such as Daresso's Defiance and Vengeance/Stun/Charge on Melee Stun, but these are generally not as practical for Cyclone builds.

Read my quote above. :)
No such thing as stupid questions.

Just edited it going a little lighter on the abbreviations, considering you're a new player. My bad!