(3.2) [Lighty] 2H RT Cyclone: Dope for Beast League & Lab™

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

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Xavathos wrote:

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Shuggananas wrote:

Hey

Just hit 70 and finished A10, until I can afford a good end game weapon, is a hezmana with 5L a good replacement ? Looks to be better that kaom's since it's like a 6L with the free blood magic

Kaom's is better if you have a way to manage mana.

If you don't or run BM anyway, Hezmana is better.

Kaom's is only better if you're not a Slayer, you're not running a Brutality build, and you're running off mana or BM keystone. Keep in mind as well that Hezmana does not require the links in the weapon itself and automatically supports Totems/Leap Slam as well.

Generally speaking, Hezmana is the best (non-rare) weapon pre-Kitava/Atziri/Starforge.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

Thanks for the advice. I have another question tho- This build does not run Vaal Pact, does this mean it can't do reflect maps? I played this build couple years ago on HC and i died at lvl 70-something to a reflect pack that popped up from underground when i wasn't paying attention. Now im going to play SC but i'd hate to not be able to do reflect stuff. Would slayer help with that? With it 50% less phys reflect?
Or is the massive armor Juggernaut gets also going to mitigate similar amount of reflect?

I have to say i really like the slayer passives. How much less survivable is he?

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Xavathos wrote:

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Shuggananas wrote:

Hey

Just hit 70 and finished A10, until I can afford a good end game weapon, is a hezmana with 5L a good replacement ? Looks to be better that kaom's since it's like a 6L with the free blood magic

Kaom's is better if you have a way to manage mana.

If you don't or run BM anyway, Hezmana is better.

yep I play triple aura (hatred/ash/arctic) so I'm looking for BM anyway, think i'll pick up hezmana, the life leech is a nice addition too, can't wait to double my DPS and steamroll some fools :D
I'm running juggernaut, being rather new (this is my second char, I played around talisman league for the first) I'd rather go for safety and reliability

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Archimtiros wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Shuggananas wrote:

Hey

Just hit 70 and finished A10, until I can afford a good end game weapon, is a hezmana with 5L a good replacement ? Looks to be better that kaom's since it's like a 6L with the free blood magic

Kaom's is better if you have a way to manage mana.

If you don't or run BM anyway, Hezmana is better.

Kaom's is only better if you're not a Slayer, you're not running a Brutality build, and you're running off mana or BM keystone. Keep in mind as well that Hezmana does not require the links in the weapon itself and automatically supports Totems/Leap Slam as well.

Generally speaking, Hezmana is the best (non-rare) weapon pre-Kitava/Atziri/Starforge.

Yes, that's again basically what I said, with different words...

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Xavathos wrote:

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

Juggers main issue is spell damage, on a 2h build you won't have spell block, and probaly also won't have spell dodge.

Also since Kaom's roots were changed, Jugger isn't that special anymore.

Slayer and Berserker can play "life sponge" with their insane leech, against any type of damage that doesn't oneshoot.

So I'd rank them...

1. Slayer (insane leech, immunity to bleed)
2. Berserker (a bit weaker: has "increased damage taken" and needs to travel to Vaal Pact)
3. Jugger (one-sided defense, but probably still best against physical damage)
4. Champion (any other class can have fortify uptime as well)

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Gunteraz wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

Thanks for the advice. I have another question tho- This build does not run Vaal Pact, does this mean it can't do reflect maps? I played this build couple years ago on HC and i died at lvl 70-something to a reflect pack that popped up from underground when i wasn't paying attention. Now im going to play SC but i'd hate to not be able to do reflect stuff. Would slayer help with that? With it 50% less phys reflect?
Or is the massive armor Juggernaut gets also going to mitigate similar amount of reflect?

Armour will mitigate physical reflect damage and quite effectively too when it comes to Cyclone. This is because armour suffers when being dealt large hits, it's effectiveness has diminishing returns the larger the hit becomes. Cyclone hits are low damage but very fast, thus armour retains most of it's effectiveness.

Also, Juggernaut has access to more endurance charges than other classes and is rewarded for having them, so a serious consideration is to take the 3 from the passive tree as well. They provide addition physical damage reduction that reduces whatever damage comes through your armour by x%, depending on your amount of charges up at the time.

Is it better than the straight up 50% less damage taken from physical reflect that Slayer gets? I can't say for sure. I'd have to do the math. But I do know that that effect only works on reflect, while armour and physical damage reduction is always useful.

Slayer has much more potent leech potential, but when you mitigate a lot of damage through armour and charges, you also don't require much leech to top yourself off again, in theory. It's the age old debate between mitigation and healing. Which is better is up to you to decide.

Slayer, with the help of leech not stopping on full health, will probably have an easier time staying alive taking constant hard hits from bosses. While Juggernaut will have a harder time, with armour diminishing returns and lower leech potential. Unstoppable will help the Juggernaut to always be able to move away from dangerous hits though, so there's at least an argument to make on both ends.

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

Juggers main issue is spell damage, on a 2h build you won't have spell block, and probaly also won't have spell dodge.

Also since Kaom's roots were changed, Jugger isn't that special anymore.

Slayer and Berserker can play "life sponge" with their insane leech, against any type of damage that doesn't oneshoot.

So I'd rank them...

1. Slayer (insane leech, immunity to bleed)
2. Berserker (a bit weaker: has "increased damage taken" and needs to travel to Vaal Pact)
3. Jugger (one-sided defense, but probably still best against physical damage)
4. Champion (any other class can have fortify uptime as well)

Well, yes, you can play Slayer with Kaom's Roots for the Juggernaut effect of Unstoppable-ish. Or you can play a Juggernaut with Death's Door for the Slayer effect of being immune to bleed.

Juggernaut, imo, still comes out on top. Death's Door bleed immunity is always on and Kaom's Roots miss a line from Unstoppable that has value with Temporal Chains and Chill effects.

Besides, I doubt you could run Kaom's Heart with those boots since you'd miss 10 sockets total, unless you play with the bare minimum of skills and supports. Besides the massive life, I like Death's Door much more as boots. But that's of course just my humble opinion.

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Xavathos wrote:

Well, yes, you can play Slayer with Kaom's Roots for the Juggernaut effect of Unstoppable-ish. Or you can play a Juggernaut with Death's Door for the Slayer effect of being immune to bleed.

Juggernaut, imo, still comes out on top. Death's Door bleed immunity is always on and Kaom's Roots miss a line from Unstoppable that has value with Temporal Chains and Chill effects.

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

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Xavathos wrote:

Yes, that's again basically what I said, with different words...

It's called elaborating. Also you left out the part about Brutality, which is fairly key in this new expansion.