Changes to Map Mods for The Awakening

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GGG_Neon wrote:

It's important to note that none of these changes affect existing maps with the old art. Only the new maps will have the below set of changes.

This is probably a foolish question, but I haven't gotten far enough in the beta to see maps drop.

After the Awakening launches, will old-art maps continue to drop?

That is, in the Awakening, will I see exclusively new-art maps, or will I see a mix of existing maps and new maps?

Also, is there a list anywhere of the new map types that drop in Awakening?

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DonRosa wrote:

Temp chains is good for at least one build: Vaal Molten Shell build

it seems to be good for reave too. stacks stay up much longer = easier to maintain them.

i would be glad to get rid of these map modifiers:

temp chains
half regen
no regen
lowered max resists
fracture
blood magic
chilled ground

don't think anyone likes them anyway. would be no loss to replace them with something else.

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Tartaros38 wrote:

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Serleth wrote:

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Tartaros38 wrote:

i thing we will never see magic mobs on maps again with that change ^^

If anything, I'm more excited than before to get magic mobs.

i thing then you are one of the few who don t hat it when 10 p-link leapers jump on you and 3 stay back with the killable buff. Or a inddor map with 10 totems on the door and the other mobs are behind it ..... i didn t enjoy this shit one bit.

LOL no that was frustrating.

but great changes to maps by the looks of it! good ideas for the map system!!

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Noetherian wrote:

After the Awakening launches, will old-art maps continue to drop?

It'd be like any other buff/nerf/rework/change to items: existing ones will be "legacy" and hence never drop, and all new drops will be of the new map types.

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kompaniet wrote:

i would be glad to get rid of these map modifiers:

temp chains
half regen
no regen
lowered max resists
fracture
blood magic
chilled ground

don't think anyone likes them anyway. would be no loss to replace them with something else.

Actually, I think a lot of what the changes are here for, is to address the underlying problem that you've (unwittingly) drawn attention to.

As it stands, there is VERY little variety in the map mods people bother to roll. At high levels, they just alt until they get +packsize, maybe regal it, and call it a day. They only focus on "easy" mods, and will reroll/find another map if they get anything that causes difficulty.

As a result, VERY little of the endgame's content, in terms of mods, actually see the light of day much. A lot of mods wind up being "Free quantity" for the right build (blood magic, reflects, etc.) but then NEVER run by anyone else.

A proper system has both a balance of risk AND reward. That way, it becomes less of an automatic "my build can't handle this," but rather a conscious question of whether the player can undertake that risk versus the reward for it, and hence expose them to a LOT more variance in gameplay.

With the current exception of Temporal Chains, all of those are valid options that I run all the time:

-Half Recovery just requires you be cautious. This is actually more challenging than no-regen because it applies to life leech rate, shield recovery, and any non-instant recovery.

-No Regen... If your build can't do this at all... Unless you're like RF or something, you shouldn't even be trying to do maps.

-Lowered max resists is an outright big damage buff to all enemies: basically the next step over +35% damage... But doesn't apply to physical. Given everyone will still have 50-60+ in each resist... So if you're too squishy to where you'll get one-shot just by that... Then your build has other issues.

-Fractured could use a little tuning, given that beyond its inherent +30% quantity bonus, it brings no direct benefit. However, it's popular when stacked with "Beyond" maps.

-Blood Magic is, again, a force-gameplay change. I've run them myself with a non-BM char... Not so bad. Sure, for the LL 10-aura build, it means you gotta turn off half your auras, but screw those builds anyway: they're wildly overpowered. Forcing them back to mortality and adding a challenge is all what map mods are about, isn't it?

-Chilled Ground may be one of the nastier two ground effects, but for most, it's not that bad: ranged can attack from the clear ground, and melee can still lure to put them on the right spot. The only potential issue with ANY such ground mods are the tiny number of maps that are very cramped, which don't offer those positioning options as much. Granted, people tend to SKIP those ones anyhow... (like Labyrinth, Waste Pool, etc)

only the rich players, top racers or standard league players can alt maps until they get packsize from my experience and those are in minority last i checked.

i did the same in the 1 month league until i slowly ran out of alts. must have had 300-400 stashed but they deplete fast. many times it can take up to 2 freaking stacks (40 alts) to get this mod.
i since found out it's not realistic to do unless you have an unlimited amount of alts nor was it worth it.

but the changes coming are good nonetheless. maybe not so much for racers. gonna be interesting in the next temp league.

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ACGIFT wrote:

Actually, I think a lot of what the changes are here for, is to address the underlying problem that you've (unwittingly) drawn attention to.

As it stands, there is VERY little variety in the map mods people bother to roll. At high levels, they just alt until they get +packsize, maybe regal it, and call it a day. They only focus on "easy" mods, and will reroll/find another map if they get anything that causes difficulty.

As a result, VERY little of the endgame's content, in terms of mods, actually see the light of day much. A lot of mods wind up being "Free quantity" for the right build (blood magic, reflects, etc.) but then NEVER run by anyone else.

A proper system has both a balance of risk AND reward. That way, it becomes less of an automatic "my build can't handle this," but rather a conscious question of whether the player can undertake that risk versus the reward for it, and hence expose them to a LOT more variance in gameplay.

With the current exception of Temporal Chains, all of those are valid options that I run all the time:

-Half Recovery just requires you be cautious. This is actually more challenging than no-regen because it applies to life leech rate, shield recovery, and any non-instant recovery.

-No Regen... If your build can't do this at all... Unless you're like RF or something, you shouldn't even be trying to do maps.

-Lowered max resists is an outright big damage buff to all enemies: basically the next step over +35% damage... But doesn't apply to physical. Given everyone will still have 50-60+ in each resist... So if you're too squishy to where you'll get one-shot just by that... Then your build has other issues.

-Fractured could use a little tuning, given that beyond its inherent +30% quantity bonus, it brings no direct benefit. However, it's popular when stacked with "Beyond" maps.

-Blood Magic is, again, a force-gameplay change. I've run them myself with a non-BM char... Not so bad. Sure, for the LL 10-aura build, it means you gotta turn off half your auras, but screw those builds anyway: they're wildly overpowered. Forcing them back to mortality and adding a challenge is all what map mods are about, isn't it?

-Chilled Ground may be one of the nastier two ground effects, but for most, it's not that bad: ranged can attack from the clear ground, and melee can still lure to put them on the right spot. The only potential issue with ANY such ground mods are the tiny number of maps that are very cramped, which don't offer those positioning options as much. Granted, people tend to SKIP those ones anyhow... (like Labyrinth, Waste Pool, etc)

I think there are more legit builds that can't run some of the mods you mention as "should always be doable" then you give credit for. Very high mana cost skills on no regen or blood magic(half recovery can be too slow or dangerous to be viable), high damage reflect(i assume the map mod still exists) -max. Just a few examples off the top of my head.

Now I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it should be taken into consideration when discussing balance.

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ACGIFT wrote:

...

A proper system has both a balance of risk AND reward. That way, it becomes less of an automatic "my build can't handle this," but rather a conscious question of whether the player can undertake that risk versus the reward for it, and hence expose them to a LOT more variance in gameplay.

With the current exception of Temporal Chains, all of those are valid options that I run all the time:

...

So much BS... at least post with what build you run all those mods. Some of the mods listed are nearly impossible or ultra annoying to run.

Bloodmagic mod in Awakening means that any physical damage builds that now run Hatred and HoA are screwed. Turning off those 2 aura means at least 30% DPS reduction if not even more. Bloodmagic will also mean that skill points invested to mana regen, mana leech and max mana are completely wasted, which is a big PITA considering Awakening forces you to invest into those to sustain your mana usage.

Damage reflect mod is still...I'm not sure why is it still on the list and in its old form. Monster reflect was reworked but map affix stays the same. It is clear no go.

-Max resists is doable in low level maps but doing certain maps from mid-tier upward is suicide. Unless you expect people to have set of uniques such as Raise of the Phoenix and maxed Purities available for those maps.

I'm not even going to start with multiple mods that appear in mid and high map tiers.

Does anyone know if map tier is based on droplevel or itemlevel?

By looking at this page: http://cb.poedb.tw/us/mod.php?type=36

I see that reflect is still there and as high as before, that's not good.
Single elemental damage increase is higher than before at high tier, now imagine double increased elemental damage...
Pretty much all high map tier mods are higher than on live.
High tier mods have the same reward as low and mid tier mods but still have increased risk, looks like double dipping risk but not reward.

Looks like the "risk" gap from low to high tier will be wider and overall reward will be lower in 2.0, I've never been a fan of big gaps from low to high end, GGG seems to have a weakness for the 1% no-life hardcore community for high end tier, oh well.

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ACGIFT wrote:

- stuff -

Glad few others posted about the BS inherent in your post. You speak as if some of those mods should be something most/every build is capable of doing. Especially in case of BM and no regen, you're just flat out wrong and misinformed. As stated before me, there are multiple reasons why those don't allow some build to play them. Your presumptuousness is irritating and borders on arrogance; fortunately your opinion counts for nothing and there are much smarter people posting here including devs.

What benefit has it to me to see the tier instead of the level?

Colouring the icon ought to be enough to distinguish the low/mid/top maps from each other and within each range why not show the level?

Now I have to calculate each time to see if I have a 75 ot 76 map (not that it causes much trouble, just another calculation which reaps no additional information)

So please supply a clear reason, why level is not sufficient anymore.