[outdated] Caustic Arrow Solo Map MFer (20/300+)

Hi guys,

Not sure if this question has been asked before (this forum really needs a "search in thread" function) but do you guys think running pierce gem instead of increased AoE is worth it? To offset the decreased AoE from conc effect, we start from scion instead of ranger and take the +AoE nodes. This adds around 46% additive damage to PA, (35% from the extra chance to pierce, and 11% from the extra nodes we take from the scion start. We don't take the 5% and 30% pierce node.) with 13% decreased cloud size.

Maybe something like this:

https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAAAwABAO4DHgUtBbUGIwhnDPIPqxUgFbgWvxmKGbQbyB9BI_YkiyaVKk0qWyzpLYMuUzB8NZI2PTfUPs8_J0MxRwZHfkkTSshNklFHUq9VS1oaWlJh4mKsZU1n_GwIbIxtbG5pbqp07XXLdoJ59nvDfXWCXoTFhNmGs4ngjX2Nfo2_kx-WMpcGm12btZ2qoSKiQKXLqJq0xbTRtfK3trtNu-O9Nr3mvqfCjsLswzPDOsSiyAzIW8u90NDTb9N-1CPV-Ni92sHb591f44TmWOaB6mLtP-968Yryl_T49qP-ug==

This assumes that you have a level 21 pierce (corrupted). Essentially this trades AoE for higher paper dps, but I'm not sure if it'll improve clear time empirically since you may end up doing less dps - this happens if mobs wander out of the PA cloud more frequently due to its decreased size.

EDIT: Looks like it adds around 4k DPS, according to the calculator on the 2nd post.

Yeah, a search function would be super nice. :P

The question has been asked before, but it's fine. I'm happy to answer it again.

If you're running a 20% PA gem and Carcass Jack (both would be required), then it comes down to a question of playstyle and whether you feel that it's worth sacrificing the AoE for more damage. Your clear speed for packs will suffer slightly, in that your coverage will be less and you will have to fire additional arrows to compensate, but it's a minor loss as long as CJ is in play, particularly with the increased damage from the chest and from the gem change, and the subsequent impact on rares/exiles/boss kill times.

With the AoE gem in, you have 39% AoE. Removing it is -39%. With your tree going from Scion (which I don't recommend, you really don't need to invest those nodes in the scion regen/aoe, and the two points you lose taking 16% projectile damage that aren't invested in life nodes ends up being significant in higher level maps), you get 12% for a net change of -27% compared to the usual setup. But those are four nodes you could invest in finishing off the Acrobatics branch or adding more life from the Scion life wheel, which is far more critical.

Carcass Jack is 20% AoE and 20% PA is 10% AoE, for a net gain (with your tree) of 3% AoE but if you go with my recommendation and remove the AoE nodes to invest points elsewhere, it's -9%. Without Carcass Jack however, it's a 29% loss, which is too significant.

Your math on the damage output is also slightly off. The tree I submit leaves 16% Proj Damage out from Scion, so your net change is 51%. (I'm also assuming leaving out the Piercing Shots notable was just an oversight).

However, in order to maximize your damage output, using the Pierce gem is less efficient. Dealing strictly with the gem change, you are only adding 35% damage. Conversely, a 20/20 Iron Grip gem adds 38% + 10% from quality = 48% projectile damage.


Long story short, as long as you have both a 20% PA and Carcass Jack, a 9% loss in AoE will barely be noticeable and worth exchanging the gem out for Iron Grip. If you are lacking either the 20% gem or CJ, stick with +AoE.

Question:

How do you guys deal with Terrace boss? I was insta-rip with 4.2k hp... however I don't think even 5k hp would help much.

Any tip on kiting the boss or how to avoid his attacks?
Thanks!

Believe it or not, 4.8k is the difference-maker, as long as you're not running an extra damage map.

Otherwise just use the pillars to block his line of sight best you can and fire in. Ideally you'd actually always get an entrance where you face him in your top right or left corner; you can actually creep up and get him just barely on the edge of your screen without triggering him, then fire at will and he doesn't move.

If he's in the bottom edges of the map, you have to engage. Dual granite/jade flask is your friend, regardless of whether you're IR or Acro.

Tbh most of the time I don't even care if I die against him, but I'm also past the point of caring about levels (94). If your concerned about continuing to level still, just skip Labyrinth entirely, or just skip the boss.

What I eventually do in leagues is that I have multiple characters that have different strengths and weaknesses, so what I'll do is prepare a bunch of XYZ maps (say, Village Ruin). I'll do a full clear of the map, other than bosses, with the MF build then switch to the appropriate build that can more easily handle that boss so I don't miss out on map drops.

It's time consuming to be making that switch, and also not a guarantee that you're going to be able, or willing, to have characters that can handle different situations, but... that's what I do, personally.

Massive thanks for that comprehensive reply Serleth! I left out Piercing shots because as I understand it, pierce gem, poacher's aim and drillneck and one more pierce node is sufficient to hit 100% pierce. (pierce gem level 21 - 70%, poacher's aim - 15%, drillneck (implicit) - 10%, pierce node - 5%)

However you said there's a better alternative using Iron grip while still going down the ranger start, so I'll do that if I need a DPS spike for any reason.

Hi,

i would like to ask one question, why is the order of the gems important (IIR as the last).I used 200 chroms just to get 3b1r2g slots in my bow. If you answered here somewhere or its written in the guide i missed it.

Thanks for answering.

"

Serleth wrote:

Believe it or not, 4.8k is the difference-maker, as long as you're not running an extra damage map.

Otherwise just use the pillars to block his line of sight best you can and fire in. Ideally you'd actually always get an entrance where you face him in your top right or left corner; you can actually creep up and get him just barely on the edge of your screen without triggering him, then fire at will and he doesn't move.

If he's in the bottom edges of the map, you have to engage. Dual granite/jade flask is your friend, regardless of whether you're IR or Acro.

Tbh most of the time I don't even care if I die against him, but I'm also past the point of caring about levels (94). If your concerned about continuing to level still, just skip Labyrinth entirely, or just skip the boss.

What I eventually do in leagues is that I have multiple characters that have different strengths and weaknesses, so what I'll do is prepare a bunch of XYZ maps (say, Village Ruin). I'll do a full clear of the map, other than bosses, with the MF build then switch to the appropriate build that can more easily handle that boss so I don't miss out on map drops.

It's time consuming to be making that switch, and also not a guarantee that you're going to be able, or willing, to have characters that can handle different situations, but... that's what I do, personally.

Thanks for the reply. I am also thinking using my other character only for the boss. However, I feel like this build should be capable of this :)

With some adjustment and 5 jewels, I'm sitting at 4.3k hp and 16500 buffed dot. I am looking at the corruption wheel thinking if I want to use those points on HP. The biggest challenge there is the loss of Int. Losing 40 int is critical and I haven't figure out an efficient way to get around it without spending crazy currency on top tier jewels or vary rare helm/gloves with Int.

Anyway, this build is certainly very promising and probably the top 3 fun builds I've tried since POE beta. Thanks!

"

Dartagnan_cz wrote:

Hi,

i would like to ask one question, why is the order of the gems important (IIR as the last).I used 200 chroms just to get 3b1r2g slots in my bow. If you answered here somewhere or its written in the guide i missed it.

Thanks for answering.

First 3 Support Gems: SP, CE, AoE. Both SP and CE provide multiplicative damage boosts to the PA Cloud. The increased AoE coverage improves clear speed. Empower as 5L: Without CE and SP, the gem level isn't quite as impactful. If you're missing either one of those gems, having Empower just isn't as critical. IIR last: because of the likelihood of the progression of the build in a fresh league. I.e., you'll have a level 20 PA before you'll have it quality'd; you won't have Carcass Jack until later. If you don't have the ability to offset the loss of the AoE gem with a quality PA and Carcass Jack, it's just not worth taking out AoE in exchange for IIR at the cost of clear speed.

Once you have both 20% PA and Carcass, that's when you can drop AoE for IIR if you're still running in a 5L.

@Lutz: You're welcome =) Without being able to see your gear, all I can really say definitively is that I'm able to max-level the gems that matter (CE, AoE) and have a level 13 Vulnerability (only reason to level the gem is for increased AoE of the curse), with just this helmet:



Which cost me about 8c.

@Krazed: You're welcome.

I was doing some quick calculations and wouldn't pierce gem replace conc effect gem once you obtain a drill neck. At first glance everything screams yes. Less mana multiplier. And I believe more dmg without the area loss

No.

Concentrated Effect is multiplicative damage. Pierce (converted to projectile damage) is additive.

I.e., the formula is:

[Base damage * (all additive damage modifiers)] * all multiplicative damage modifiers.

So let's say you have 100% damage off the tree, and 2,000 base damage. Then you have Pierce (35%). That means that your increased damage is total, 135%. Expressed mathematically, that's an increase of * 2.35 (1 + 135/100) which = (1 + 1.35) = 2.35

(NOTE: That 35% increased damage from the Pierce gem is determined by the fact that once you have Drillneck, you will acquire Piercing Shots and utilize Poacher's Aim, which will provide you with 65% Pierce chance, aka projectile damage. That means that utilizing the Pierce gem will only supply an additional 35% damage, since Pierce chance (and subsequently the increased projectile damage from Drillneck) cannot exceed 100%. Therefore, 100% cap - 65% from tree/jewel = 35% Pierce chance remaining, meaning the gem's potential additive damage is capped at a 35% increase, presuming you have made the decisions as described).

[2,000 * 2.35] * 1 (no multiplicative modifiers = 1) = 4,700 dps

Compared to Conc Effect (59% MORE damage, so expressed mathematically that means * 1.59. Now we're taking pierce out, so the increased damage modifier is 100%, expressed as 1 + 100/1 = 2

[2,000 * 2] * 1.59 = 6,360 dps.

Now as your base damage of the gem scales higher, what this means is that getting additional additive damage modifiers is amplified to an even greater extent if you have multiplicative damage behind it.

As you can see in the above calculation, the dps difference is 1,660. Now let's run the exact same numbers with a base damage of 4,000.

4,000 * 2.35 = 9,400

[4000 * 2] * 1.59 = 12,720

12,720 - 9,400 = 3,320 dps difference.


In other words, you always want to prioritize multiplicative damage (MORE) over additive damage (INCREASED). Which is similarly why Slower Proj and Frenzy charges are important for the damage-scaling of the build, as both provide multiplicative bonuses.