Block incin and stuff *Discontinued due to Incinerate nerfs*
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I am running Temp chains on my curse on hit gem with Tempest Shields and Warlords Mark on CWDT. This way i get most of the time temp chains on mobs, but on some i get Warlords mark. These few mobs are (with my current block chance etc) enough to get 3 endurance charges running. Whats your opinion about this setup? Is it worth in late game with max block chance?
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" Geez, don't get so emotional. I also struggle to make some good build and not just follow some guide, so I know it's hard to take some harsh words, but advices generally consist of negative points and cons, and not praises. By "This won't work" I meant that many things in your build doesn't add. If you did read to end of my post, you should saw that I am saying that it should be viable, but it's more glass cannon than this build. This build focuses on having moderate damage coupled with super-high defenses. Your focuses on having high damage over defences. That's why I said you should check other builds as here you won't find so many useful advices FOR YOUR BUILD. Start with the ones I mentioned in my earlier post. About using MoM, EB and GR in your build, based on what you wrote in your previous post I would say the same (for opinion with this rare, go to next paragraph). You were saying that you plan on using either lighting coil, cloak of flames or tabula rasa (which you are using now) you wouldn't get more than 800 ES and 800 ES is nothing if you use MoM for mitigation - for large hits which adds up to, let say, 5000 dmg, you would get 8 % mitigation and it stops your spamming of incinerate which means that you lose your regen and need to run from monsters to recharge ES. Small hits comes from small fries so you probably kill them too fast to even notice it. In conclusion - you don't use MoM correctly, it might be even hinderance for your build at the moment. If you don't notice it, it means that you kill mobs before they inflict enough damage to you, but then again, you don't need it. In you shoes I would invest it somewhere else, like going for more life and cost reduction ? It's possible to reduce cost to 0, which would go well with what you have right now (check one of the links I pasted). If you use some other chest, like this rare one with high ES, and get to around 1,8 ES.... yes, this make sense... but it's totaly different build than the one you mentioned earlier. People, me included, judge the setup you give or describe, and this is something different. Also, I don't know how you get to 1,8K ES with this gear and tree. Gear and tree should give you 701 ES and 90% increase so it gives 1,3K ES. Are you using something else ? If so, state it, please. Personally I also don't really see much more benefits in your build. From what I see, with your gear and tree (I don't include jewels and auras as both of them can run the same ones) you get 540 % increase, and original build it adds up to 224%, so you get around 2 times more dmg. And what did you trade it off for ? Your character will have 5-6 times less effective life (after calculating mitigation), need to run with every bigger hit, coz your ES will drop too much, and it's not really going well with skill which gets stronger the longer you cast it. Also because of the need to make MoM viable you need to focus on ES with every piece of your gear to get neccessary ES, so a Evasion and Armour are non-existing. Your blind also doesn't do much as it just halves the chance of hit after calculating with Evasion. ...So yes, it might be viable but it doesn't mean it makes any sense to me. Last edited by Alex_Lied on Sep 6, 2015, 4:27:03 PM
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@Niratschi That's a creative and (I imagine) effective way to further increase damage mitigation! Nice thinking!
Since I'm going low block, I think I'll support vengeance with CoH-Warlords, with CWDT-enfeeble. Tyvm for the idea! @Alex_Lied I think you're interpreting my response with emotion that I didn't intend to convey. In your more recent response, I think you're incorrect on a number of points. First, I want to make clear that all I'm attempting here is a blockless version of the build, preferably as cheap as possible. I'm not committed to dual claw, tabula, lightning coil, elreon's jewelry, or any other particular gear choice, I'm just trying to find the best budget solution. In my first post, I wasn't sure what my total ES would be like with various gear combinations, since I hadn't done any ES-based builds before. For all I knew, 1500 ES would be reachable in dual claws and tabula as long as I had enough %ES from tree and flat ES on other gear slots. I wasn't aware of how low base ES is on gloves and boots. After buying that gear, I was pretty pleasantly surprised to see my ES at 710, and even more surprised at how well that works for maps up to 74. Are you taking intelligence into account for ES calculations? My build gets about another 100 int compared to the block version. From int, passives, and jewels I get +130% max ES. Regardless, I'm not making up the number, I do get above 1800 ES with that chest on. My ES is well under 30% of my life, so the mitigation % from MoM changes depending on the strength of the hit and how much ES I had right before taking the hit. I prefer to think of it as simply additional life. With 4.5k life and 700 ES, I can handle up to 5.2k burst physical damage. Surprisingly 710 ES is working quite well for me in these easier maps. If I run out of ES while whirling, I have to whirl out. But most often, I'm casting incinerate when I run out. When this happens, my leech fuels my ES, and since my incinerate cost is only 10 ES I can actually maintain it. For harder maps, though, I do want to get my ES high enough to better mitigate big hits. I had two options for this: drop the tabula for an ES chest or drop the second claw for an ES shield. For the price, even including the cost of 6S + 5L, the ES chest was a better deal. I'd lose the 6th link, but keep the double healing from my second claw, and for <20c I got much better stats by swapping the tabula. Finally, I want to make a detailed response in particular to your concluding remarks. If I seem annoyed, it's because greatly exaggerating numbers to make your point is simply annoying. " I'm not sure where you're getting 5-6 times less effective health. For attacks it's really more like 2-times, maybe 2.5-times. For spells it's ~3.4-times. I lose some block, that's it, and I gain other things. First, I have an additional 45% increased max life compared to the original build, which is the same as 16.5% more max life assuming 7% max life in each jewel slot. I've got more armor than the original build, and nearly as much armor as I'd have in a lightning coil. With 1.8k ES my MoM is at full effectiveness for up to 6000 burst damage. Blind is unreliable, since vengeance only responds to 30-40% of attacks and blind only effects 10% of the hits caused by vengeance, and my accuracy is shit. Still, when it does stick it halves the damage I take, so it's not worthless, and my low evade numbers actually make it reduce more damage than it would on an evade heavy build. I run chaos golem on cwdt, which is up all the time. I've still got arctic armor, fortify, auto-cursing, and evade and armor pots. All I lost was some block. I've got 15% block instead of 67% block of the OP (which was before the +2 block jewel nerf), which is a ~2.5-fold effective health reduction. I'm having a really hard time seeing how my effective health is reduced more than at most ~2.5-fold. This is why the trade-offs make sense to me. I replaced an expensive shield with a 3 chaos weapon. I lose some dps on gear (claw + shield) but get a lot more dps from passives and jewels (an extra prefix on 5 jewels is up to 80% increased damage). I lose a lot of avoidance from reduced block and no temporal chains, but I mitigate more from chaos golem and enfeeble, and I have 16.5% more life. My health heals twice as fast, and I whirl around 10% faster. | |
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Maybe Haste instead of Anger if you can get enough Dex, the faster attack speed would also have utility purposes with whirling blade.
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Hi all,
Build looks really solid. Anybody using a "Vaal Pact" - Version of this build? If so, could you pls link your tree and your block stats? |
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" Your Leech goes to ES so Vaal pact is just good when you have low ES as it allows you to bypass the 20% limit of leech. When your ES reaches something around 1.5k ES it become obsolete. But if I am missing something which makes you willing to go for it I think my tree whould be easy to modify for Vaal Pact.
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https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgYAl5dFfIw2YeJVS6XL_xxvhDqtwuy0xQzybIxirNsLgh6IQsHFSVHw1Y_67BhfatDQ2-dHBoUy6-5VxoPbHwIEB-_rUUeNvwW1o4pNkiP2jX094tfLTGAbrUjuFSD2o-967g7iLNE2CTO-pxm0LYO9NmVNjX51y-piQzEFLXTt2sHTby5TEuGi6oTvwYJNRmLswL9AoHrvrK8M96mV-_W0OOUZMHw9D3y7-6oGOfMGUWAmlVWFbWwPqxa_jxoc3IP3ES18gzLRRUfAZgSzogDwH2jyr2zFis2YTLMtH5UgwfPQH52qpys1uR1PlS4HHg== " - To start of, this build is easily getting to 67 % block. It was getting to 75 % before jewel nerf. From tree, tempest shield, jewels and shield itself you get: 25 + 27 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 64 If you get some bonuses from gear, mainly from corrupted ones, you get get to 67. Now, why 5-6 times less ? Well, your MoM and everything works fine with this rare chest with ES but it doesn't with lightning coil. Also you cannot calculate your defenses for stats with one chest and then include mitigation from another one, namely lightining coil. Here's how I did get there (long wall of text):
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From the OP
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" Apart from lowering block to 67% it is quite safe to take the rest as it is. For your setup I took the version with tabula rasa, dual claws and the rest of showed gear. So the one you showed here:
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" You said that you want to keep it cheap so I didn't use lighting coil for calculations. You have 20 increase to armour and this gear gives 267 armour, let's also use granite so we get: 3267 * 1,2 = 3920,4 For the atziri strike it equals ~ 5%.
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Damage Reduction Factor = Armour / ( Armour + (12 * Damage) )
DRF = 4000 / (4000 + (12 * 6500)) = 0.049 The OP had enough for 15 % reduction so the difference would be 10 %. Arctic armour and fortify is the same in both builds so let's exclude them. Now, let's assume you have same life pool before increase so 2400 (6000 / (1+1,5)). So with your increase you should get around 7000 hp and since Es is unaffected by your level, this 700 ES which gives life pool of 7700 points. OP had 6000hp and 2500 ES so ~7500 points. Effective lifes would be: 7500 * (1- 0,67)^(-1) * (1 - 0,1)^(-1) * (1-0,3)^(-1) = 7500 * 3,03 * 1,11 * 1,66 = 41 873 and 7700 * (1- 0,15)^(-1) = 7700 * 1,17 = 9058 41873/9058 = 4,62 You also said that you don't use temporal chains (maybe it is my mistake) which also slows down enemies by 0,3. It is hard to include it in calculations as enemies first need to trigger CoDT gem before it curse them, but it should rise this 4,62 difference of effective life pools to something between 5 and 5 - Additional 80 % increase of dmg with your already huge boost of 520% will just give you less than 15% more damage so it's not worth it, better go for casting speed if anything (it will works as multiplicative). Of course, you could go for dropping tabula rasa, giving this nice rare a chance. This will make it sensible for using MoM, GR and EB while still having higher dps. But it still would be lacking and weaker than OP. Viable, maybe not but for mapping, but weaker. Still just semi-good in my opinion, sorry. Here is what I would do to make something which could really compate with original idea:
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This is your tree Now, after changing 19 points you can get this:
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https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgAA2L01kv4K21m31r6ALaimV03j_o864fJFjxoc3OvuakPAVLzqCPRtGSaVYeJVS4w2-_W0OOUZl5dFfOWOpLEfQQMeFr8fxy2LLJwreIdlEFivt3yDES0yNAQHHwI6WFXGg9usmOxVKo1JGzbY8WxTUkWdmuCiAASzwGZFRzLR8B9o8gmq2fzAmouM-d2PpkSrVa7fsIIQXfKdY9hN2mKUoPnoaHRBh7c-GFZ7w6iam13ylyj6uJOCxyL0bAuTJ1M1UELUI42_BbXo1ud0bWwPqzpCS3jdqDBxlnR8S0mx18_5N--INj2dqmyMYqxewIha Same life bonus, few fire dmg nodes off and different keystone. With this tree coupled with three 5% reduction jewels and two vaal grace gems linked with longer duration. Reduction jewels and and redution from tree will make you cast incinerate for zero 10 ES (your current cost if I recall) + 24 (reduction from rings) = 34 34 * (1 - 0,15 - 0,17) - 24 = 34 * 0,68 - 24 = 23,18 - 24 ~ <0 So life leech gem can be replaced for someting or you can keep it to have even higher regen (if you go with reduced cost you can also drop some reduction jewels) You have 4 jewel sockets but since your increases to dmg are already high getting more of them won't do you much good. I would go for cast speed, life and these reductions. The socket near MoM keystone is perfect for anatomical knowledge - it would give you additional 30% life increase. It's a bit costly but for end-game, after mapping for a while I would try to get one (~1ex) Vaal grace would work like your Rumi, check it: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Vaal_Grace http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Rumi's_Concoction From the tree you have already 40 % mitigation, and with vaal grace you get additional ~30 % for 9 sec (so it goes up to 70%) and you can cast it every 24 kills. Your block drops to 10% (0,7 * 15) but after this 70% avoidance it still apply. It is much cheaper and even better than rumi combination - less kills needed to fill, and with duration gem it will get to 9 sec, while rumi have 4. On another hand you cannot use it at the start of the map (flask start the maps as full and vaal skil needs filling). If you leave out ES from your gear you can easily grab additional 230 hp which with your tree should equal 700 lost ES. Also, zou can grab few things to get more cast speed or anything else, also lightining coil would become available to this build. In conclusion - same mitigation as OP, higher dmg, no skill damage and higher life pool. So ?
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 Last edited by Alex_Lied on Sep 7, 2015, 9:57:24 AM
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Why do your suggestions all involve gutting the core defenses of the build? Gutting the EB/MoM/GR setup for acrobatics/phase acrobatics makes just as little sense for my build as it would for the original build.
I'm not sure how much experience you have with 78+ maps, but I think my character is ridiculously tanky for a caster even without the block or lightning coil. 217% increased max life (with good jewels) MoM fortify AA auto-chaos golem auto-enfeeble 15% block 16 hp per spell hit with multiple CWDT spell spam setups and i lost the vengeance-blind setup and am now featuring cwdt molten shell (still leveling it) and consistent 3 endurance charges (need to buy a corrupted amulet with extra curse mod). I easily survive the sort of big hits that can 1-shot unlucky evade/acro builds. With my CWDT spell spam and inherently super-fast incinerate giving me 16 health per hit, with just a few enemies on my screen it feels like I'm playing a Bino's build. The only thing currently keeping me out of 78+ maps is 5L'ing my chest armor to get my hp and ES up. In a 5L, my incinerate does a little under 7k, but I have huge room to improve that with upcoming passives, jewel upgrades, and gem levels. This build, which you keep desperately trying to dismiss as not tanky enough to justify the extra damage, is tanky enough to complete all the content I'm interested in: high level maps and almost certainly Atziri. It features improved dps and life gain compared to the block version. Are we really going to set the bar for "viable build" at Uber Atziri? | |
" Sorry kid/I really don't want to be rude. Your build/character just another ..."theory-craft". It's not a "glass cannon" but it's also not a "tank". There is lots of incinerate builds with much higher dps (RF incinerate for example) And builds with higher life-pool(CI/ES based 0 mp incinerate). And you not even worlds-first dual-Cybil's abuser. So, why your "build" any better? Yes, it's "viable". Yes, you will kill Atziri. Yes, you will do high maps. But, why do you discussing it like it's version of BLOCK build (OP) here? Just to clarify, do you understand difference between 75% spell block and 0(none)% spell block? Pease. | |
" If you didn't want to be rude, you should've at least tried. First, it's not a theory craft since he's actually doing it. Second (and this is how you should've said it), I agree, the above discussion is not the same concept as the OP build, so please, move it to PMs or in another thread. Or just stop, your choice. | |
" If i want to be rude, i would say "the above discussion is not the same concept as the OP build, so please, move it to PMs or in another thread. Or just stop, your choice." Sounds like GTFO. Isn't it? BTW, I wasn't talking to you. So, why do you quoting me? Part of build discussion? Behave yourself please. |
