The imbalanced thing no one talks about (LLD)

Edit: and of course I post it to the wrong place.

Lets talk about the most imbalanced thing in LLD currently.

For 5-8 passive points you get Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics:

40% dodge for attacks
30% dodge for spells
40% stun avoidance for attacks
30% stun avoidance for spells

Drawbacks: 30% less block


Just look at the numbers for a moment. They are absolutely insane. Nothing in the passive tree comes close to the benefits of the combination of these 2 nodes.

The stun avoidance part is the thing I'd like to highlight especially since it seems that most people don't realize how crucial this "stat" is. In LLD every single thing stuns. These key stones combined with 35% stun avoidance in a helmet make you almost stun immune. Even without all the dodge these nodes would be "ok".

The drawbacks are also almost negligible for LLD. I wouldn't even consider the 50% less armor and 50% less ES worth mentioning in LLD since the actual drawback is so minimal. The only thing this really prevents is going an ES based character with Acro.

Now how to "counter" this crazy stat called dodge? In LLD, you can reduce it by mere 21% through BCR gem. Using this gem results in enemy having 31,6% dodge/immunity for attack and 23,7% dodge/immunity to spells. These numbers are still ridiculously high and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to punish the enemy for using the key stone combination. Dont forget the dodge can be further increased with a corruption to a total of 44%.


The solution I present to this problem:

Now it is very important that the change wont affect the core pve game at all. This is why the change would be made to the one thing pve doesnt use at all, the BCR gem. BCR gem is already the first link in every single attack gem in attack builds.

I suggest improving the dodge penetration part of the gem. Currently it stands at 21% and 22% if in a +1 gems item. It should be at at least the same value as the block penetration with 20% quality which is 27%. The 27% feels a lot more on par with the already lost value for using a "useless" gem.

Personally I wouldnt mind even if these percentages were even higher than the current 27%. Reducing all pvp damage at the same as making the block and dodge a bit more useless would be more ideal in every way. This way the build variety would increase by so much if we weren't forced to make a shadow every single time we want a char to be competitive.

It's known and alreast us from icu talk about it

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

It's known and alreast us from icu talk about it

A fine and elaborate post thank you!

People don't talk about it as in there hasn't been a single whine post about it in the past 6 months or so.

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lapiz wrote:

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

It's known and alreast us from icu talk about it

A fine and elaborate post thank you!

People don't talk about it as in there hasn't been a single whine post about it in the past 6 months or so.

Well it's far from the biggest problem as of today

The fact that it got nerfed when the pvp patch went live ( 30% less block - the original was 50% but was deemed to harsh) and the implementation of dodge reduction with the block reduction gem, is enough to see that acro was discussed a lot (not here on the live forums). It is in a state where its still very powerfull but further nerf will do a lot of harm to the majority of shadow/ranger builds (who are also the majority of lld pvp characters, meaning that a further nerf will drive away the few people that keep on pvping and GGG does not want that, else a lot of nerfs would have been implemented in the last joke of a season). The problem is the lack of a good defensive mechanism on the left side of the tree near marauder that can offer a different but somewhat similar kind of mitigation.


p.s. im waiting to see the interaction of the coming 25% dmg reduction buff skill and its effect on the pvp meta.

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In LLD every single thing stuns.

Let's pause here.

Why should we balance the counter instead of fixing the mechanic that initially caused the problem?

Also another thing that is missing in your post is that block deals back damage through counter gems and tempest shield and dodge doesn't.

I will give up my dodge when melee gives up RT and Vagan weapons(RT with crit and one less passive). The left and right sides of tree balance each other. Without dodge the right side of the tree has no defense against the left

I agree with you that the % bonus on BCR should be increased block AND dodge reduction.

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Well it's far from the biggest problem as of today

For HLD sure. For LLD I can't think of anything as dominant.

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wild_captain wrote:

The fact that it got nerfed when the pvp patch went live ( 30% less block - the original was 50% but was deemed to harsh)

To be honest 50% wouldn't be too harsh for LLD. For the core game, sure. I still don't think this is the proper way to balance it though (for LLD).

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wild_captain wrote:

and the implementation of dodge reduction with the block reduction gem, is enough to see that acro was discussed a lot (not here on the live forums).

I'm sure it was but I'm trying to imply here that it is still after all the nerfs the single most imbalanced thing out there. People just accept it for some reason because it nerfed.

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wild_captain wrote:

It is in a state where its still very powerfull but further nerf will do a lot of harm to the majority of shadow/ranger builds (who are also the majority of lld pvp characters, meaning that a further nerf will drive away the few people that keep on pvping and GGG does not want that, else a lot of nerfs would have been implemented in the last joke of a season).

I wonder why the majority of lld pvp characters are shadows..

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wild_captain wrote:

The problem is the lack of a good defensive mechanism on the left side of the tree near marauder that can offer a different but somewhat similar kind of mitigation.

This is true most certainly but we cant fix it through giving more defense options for the left side of the tree also because it would ruin the core game. That's why we buff BCR gem even more.

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Mephisto_n wrote:

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In LLD every single thing stuns.

Let's pause here.

Why should we balance the counter instead of fixing the mechanic that initially caused the problem?

Also another thing that is missing in your post is that block deals back damage through counter gems and tempest shield and dodge doesn't.

many people share the same sentiment, stun needs to be fixed. Acro wouldnt be nearly as advantageous if every single skill wasnt stunning. Stun should still exist but things like arc without a stun gem shouldnt be as effective at stunning as they currently are. Templar has some of the most OP caster nodes, mara has RT, duelist has the best 2hander nodes and access to US and other great nodes for sword amongst some cool nodes. My point is that each class on the tree has something the other class does not. Acro is strong especially considering stun but reduce the effects of stun and then working around stun wont be such a mandatory part of the meta and acro will lose quite a bit of its advantage.

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lapiz wrote:

I wonder why the majority of lld pvp characters are shadows..

pretty easy to answer this, and promise its not just because of acrobatics lmfao. One of the most effective midrange builds is trapper which uses Clever construction. On top of that shadow has most the crit on the tree. Shadow has great nodes all around, if your argument is that acro is op, more people would be going ranger too because they arent far from acrobatics. The problem isnt acro, or just stun immunity, its also overall great nodes and lots of versatility within the shadow tree. Many effective shadows dont even take acro.

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Mephisto_n wrote:

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In LLD every single thing stuns.

Let's pause here.

Why should we balance the counter instead of fixing the mechanic that initially caused the problem?

It is true this is a big problem as well. Acro is the best counter for this crap as well. It shouldn't be the only way to deal with stuns in LLD. It is actually quite hard to come up with a proper way to balance stun without ruining the core game experience. Personally I haven't been able to come up with an idea that would fix it in a way that wouldn't render stun completely useless. Please elaborate if you have suggestions.

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Mephisto_n wrote:

Also another thing that is missing in your post is that block deals back damage through counter gems and tempest shield and dodge doesn't.

True I forgot to type that as a drawback. Losing the ability to counter attack properly with reckoning and riposte in melee duels is actually a real drawback. Still, not nearly big enough to make a difference. Counter gems work decently with acro and just perandus as your block.