Please do not start balancing skills around PvP

I think this will all be very obvious when many ppl start doing pvp, cuthroat league and pvp tournaments.

And kierz lvl 28 build ha no weaknesess + has super damage. How about that?

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Nehemia wrote:

Bear trap one shots +5k? That would only mean that against even the weaker numbers of armor (~20%) it would deal +6k physical damage, and keep in mind that's the bare minimum. Perhaps with a critical strike. Not to mention, its a trap, you walk into it yourself.

So what? I personally don't believe any move should one-shot a player barring a massive level and gear difference, even if it's absurdly hard to land. Many similar moves have been nerfed in many other games for that reason.

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And about your talk about flicker strike, I can clearly see your builds weakness lies in someone getting to melee range. Yes, flicker strike is powerful because of that, it allows you to reach melee range with certainity. But that doesn't mean its overpowered. Builds that can stand their ground don't really care if something is directly in front of them, shit for those who cannot take pounding.

The only way to take a pounding currently is to run absurd amounts of life, life regen and ES and even that isn't guaranteed to work depending on what their other skills are. You're basically writing off every build in the game that isn't a tank.

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Counters, counters, counters. If something counters you, that isn't overpowered. And real balance can only be achieved through making sure nothing is too powerful in comparison to others, I've yet witnessed such thing. Everything has a weakness, and if it has weakness, its in balance. When we see a invincible build that has absolutely no weaknesses, only massive strengths, then I call forth the nerf bat request myself.

That's exactly what I've been saying: Flicker Strike builds have no weakness. The only things that counter it are the exact same skills that people with Flicker Strike will have anyway, such as Whirling Blades, and using them without Flicker Strike puts you at an obvious disadvantage. When the only counter to a build is to use that build with better gear, there's a problem.

I also take issue with the idea that if something has a counter then it's not overpowered. If something is so powerful that you either take that counter or you die, that destroys the freedom to be creative with builds. Nothing should be powerful enough to present that kind of choice. That's also why ice magic should be nerfed in some way even though Cannot Be Frozen mods exist.

what that flicker strike build
is it use only flicker strike and oneshot anything on sight
i just dint get it
who can be oneshoted by flicker strike

btw if someone can be oneshoted by flicker that someone can be ez oneshoted by some kind of burning arrow
so all rangers suddenly become op too ?

Kierz, all respect to you, but it seems you lean too much to one side, which is that nothing is unbalanced, which is definetely not true and could not be true unless this game was created by all perfect being.

I will give this one of scenarios with ficker strike, to show why it is op:

1: you flicker to enemy, do ~125% normal dmg,
2: you instantly poison him with viper strike at least once, or, if enemy is very slow (because of double/triple curse) or does not do huge damage, even 4 times.
3: then you run away, especially with whirling blades while enemy is bleeding heavily due to strong poison and cant catch you without flicker strike at any way.
4: after some time, you flicker to him again dealing ~125% damage, hit once with viper strike, run away.
etc.

Please, write how to counteract this wihout using flicker strike?

I was pro pvp player on ultima online for long years, and i know what balance is. Balance is when really skilled player can defeat much better geared player or even players, if he has better gaming skills. I have seen how ppl would do miracles because of their good skills, but not OP builds/gear. That does not mean gear/passives doesnt mean anything, but it shouldnt be too much deciding.

In my eyes, flicker strike shouldn't autoaim, or do 0 damage in pvp, or both. Whirling blades should also do way less or 0 damage. these things need testing.
Any ideas how to practicaly balance guys?

ez
1) you flicker to enemy, do ~125% normal dmg
a) and eat 3 stack of bear trap
b) and take counter hit with heavy strike for 150+28% damage

2) you cant instantly use viper strike coz it and all skill depends on you aspd which can be very high but still not instant
and
if you want stack 4 viper on enemy then you must make 4 clean hit(that can be evaded or blocked) so why do you expect enemy will just watch this
so i guess prepare to eat 4 heavy strike(oh yes why enemy will have less aspd than you)
and what about curses
oh god he has no curses !!!!! why ??? oh whyyyy ?????

3) then you run away especially with whirling blades while enemy is?
a) you got flicker striked too (but rly why not)
b) previously you eat not heavy strike but frenzy and now you are gona be 4times flickered instantly
c) enemy using whirling too O__o
d) enemy change weapon for bow and you take an arrow in the...
e) arc finding you right in middle of whirling
f) enemy have more movespeed than you O__O

4) etc

if you are pro player that strange see complain about some skill
you or use it or find a good counter for it
well or you not so pro

upd and one thing about this
" Balance is when really skilled player can defeat much better geared player or even players"
when you take off bear trap flicker whirling and nerf elemental dmg what can ppl do
yes it will be "stand and beat" fight
no skill no move just hit and drink

1)
a) that is not very practical cause that only works if yu put bear traps on your back and enemie flickers in a straight line to you cause flicker strike ends on the back of enemy and ignores traps that were on a way. If traps are in front of you, or on side, he will not get traped. That also limits you not to move if you want him to stupidly flicker at you without cleaning area of traps before with shockvawe totem or smth like that. + bear trap dmg is too big in lvl 28 pvp (3 bear traps in one place can instakill), so it will probably get nerfed too.
If you say that when yu flicker to him, he will cast bear trap then, so what? whirling blade and no problem. Can he cast 3 bear traps at once?
b) Counter hit? If he is stupid enough to counter hit you, then you can just whirling blade all day without getting any damage and kill him. Unless he has 4 atack speed or smth to be able to hit you on a whirleblade (if that is possible at all). + heavy strike or any strong single target are slow skills by nature (especialy in lvl 28 pvp).

2)
He might have curses, but what about permanent curses? He is forced to use potion if you curse him, but when he curses you, curse expires. You might say why he cant use perma curse? Thats the point - limiting build variety. My point is to make curses weaker, not so much cripling enemy.

3)
a) limiting build variety
b) again flicker strike, limiting variety. Btw, you shouldnt have eaten more than 1 frenzy hit.
c) limiting variety (should archer/mage switch to sword for that?)
d) that is not practical, you might get one hit, but not more, and most likely 0 hits with fast whirling blades. So, one hit will easily regenerate.
e) same as d, and damage is too little.
f) will not help against whirling blades without whirling blades. Limiting variety.

All viable counteract you gave was flicker/whirling blades. Can't see any other working way yet.

I am not suggesting to remove these things (flicker, bear trap etc). Just saying it shouldnt stack damage on top of control it has upon other players. For example, in Ultima online, main controll skill was paralyze spell, but when yu paralyzed someone, you had to cast damage spell then, and after that, enemy is released. Just imagine that you could cast paralyze that was doing damage, and chain that. Would that be good? So similar things happens with bear traps, WB and flicker strike now. It should control enemies, but should not deal massive damage on top of that.

well as i thik you just cant manage high versality given by game
1)
a) this is very practical coz if enemy eat 3 trap once he WILL BE SCARED to just flicker you
and then he must do some cleaning work that give you time
it is WORTH strategy
and 3 beartrap cant kill on 28 lvl thats impossible to takeout 1500hp with 3 trap alone
b) when you do whirling you not immune to dmg so i dont understand how you gona whirl and dont take dmg coz you gona take it and take it much more than deal
and nice joke about slow heavy strike which quality give aspd

2) just be smart enough to lift curses when you are in battle so you cant give enemy time to recast it
and for perma curse too
limiting build ho ? that a perfect counter to that build as i see

3)
a) limiting lol ? flicker strike has no weapon restriction for melee
b) but even so you deal 2x flicker more than enemy profit?
c) as you know mage and archer... they can just shoot... you know it better than run for target...
d) not practical? what a joke almost in every battle a change sword\shield to bow for pouching some slow fat hard hitting mara and i have no one point in bow\project
e) arc do little damage ? oh god what can i say
f) it will help ust try hit this whirler and you see

Flicker strike counter? Easy. Molten shell + shield. In merciless pvp especially, molten is a one shot in many cases.

In merciless, maybe.

Ok, Kierz, you convinced me, its all balanced. But to be completely sure, would like to see some videos of that, especially without flicker/WB.

I am not complaining, just want balance. I will still play the game and use op builds in pvp. With my current build, that has avarage gear, I won 200+ matches. I would many times wait in 3x3 for my team to die so I could do 3x1, never lost a single such match, only once against Kierz, but won one 3x3 against him too. I am archer, but forced to switch to melee at the same time, just to be able to use WB and viper strike.
Hope to see much more strong pvpers, so that it will be all fun and Kierz ass kicked :P

Cheers.

yp only 3x3 game i lost was me and 2 18 vs 3 28
sadly i cant win this and it come to 4x2 loss and 2 draw
what a shame...
and as you can see you manage to beat that golike op curse flicker build
btw there is more for me to grown in gear and mastery and currently i cant compare my crappy dagger with 80 dps to your godly dd bow
oh even your sword better...