Last night I had a dream...

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bermalberist4 wrote:

If you think that after fixing this block / -sword block stuff and spikey dmg / crits in pvp, you will need more than 500 crit multi, you are on drugs imo.

btw, my molten shell CE pen calculation was off, lol

Non crit 2800 x 3 x 0.6 x 0.5 x 0.8 x 1.69 = 3407
Crit x 5 = 17035

Limiting all skills to 500%crit would not stop molten or flicker from being op but it would destroy other stuff that needs high crit. Take ice spear and burn fireballs for example. Ice spear suck unless you scale ful out crit damage, burn fireballs also need high crits to start worthy burn dots (there are other skills as well but those two are what comes to mind first).

And all your damage calculations are off because no one knows the damage reduction for pvp.

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Grildrak wrote:

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bermalberist4 wrote:

If you think that after fixing this block / -sword block stuff and spikey dmg / crits in pvp, you will need more than 500 crit multi, you are on drugs imo.

btw, my molten shell CE pen calculation was off, lol

Non crit 2800 x 3 x 0.6 x 0.5 x 0.8 x 1.69 = 3407
Crit x 5 = 17035

Limiting all skills to 500%crit would not stop molten or flicker from being op but it would destroy other stuff that needs high crit. Take ice spear and burn fireballs for example. Ice spear suck unless you scale ful out crit damage, burn fireballs also need high crits to start worthy burn dots (there are other skills as well but those two are what comes to mind first).

And all your damage calculations are off because no one knows the damage reduction for pvp.

Pay attention, I never said my calculations are anything official, so why are you mentioning the current pvp penalty? I gave my calculations based on *proposed* 50% GLOBAL penalty.

You simply dont follow whats going on. I didnt simply say lower crit multi and be done with it, I suggested a whole slew of changes that will bring things more in line and reduce spikes and block dominance.

And yes capping crit would help way more than you think in taming molten and flicker / dual strike damage. I also suggested further fixes like a pvp penalty and a specific effectiveness for skills, you must've missed it even though I repeated it a lot.

You dont know how much better spells will be without spell block and spike dmg running rampant everywhere. WHen your spells are not hitting so much and not doing as much damage as retardedly OP shit that either hits all the time or just hits way too hard, of course you think spells are underpowered.

And in pvp, DF / anti freeze boots and anti frozen / burn pots >>>> burn and freeze, dont know why I myself mentioned status ailments before.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Pay attention, I never said my calculations are anything official, so why are you mentioning the current pvp penalty? I gave my calculations based on *proposed* 50% GLOBAL penalty.

Because you have no idea of what it currently is and you are just making up numbers to suit your case. The current damage reduction is probably not even a flat less multiplier but is more likely based on the size of the hit reducing more for large hits.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

And yes capping crit would help way more than you think in taming molten and flicker / dual strike damage. I also suggested further fixes like a pvp penalty and a specific effectiveness for skills, you must've missed it even though I repeated it a lot.

I am not arguing against different effectiveness for different skills. I would not mind that but it is the capping crit for all skills that I am arguing against. Because you would have to limit the crit mult way to low for the other skills just to make molten/flicker to be ok. That is why I think that would be a horrible idea.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

You dont know how much better spells will be without spell block and spike dmg running rampant everywhere. WHen your spells are not hitting so much and not doing as much damage as retardedly OP shit that either hits all the time or just hits way too hard, of course you think spells are underpowered.

Saying it again. Spells would still be worse than bows. Add your crit capp crap to that and it would be even more in favour of bows.

And about molten I do agree it is a boring poorly designed skill but it is hardly OP in anyway as it is so easy to counter. The change that skill really need is a cd.

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Grildrak wrote:

Because you have no idea of what it currently is and you are just making up numbers to suit your case. The current damage reduction is probably not even a flat less multiplier but is more likely based on the size of the hit reducing more for large hits

rofl man, of course I am making up numbers, where did I ever state otherwise? I am proposing ideas to ggg, thanks for noticing space cadet. And yes the current dmg penalty is something like that, its variable reduction like the armor formula, fx with high flicker crits its about 70% reduction from testing. More than my proposed 50%, and its still way too op when the rng favors it (thats the ugly face of criticals right there) which is exactly why crit multi and the skills themselves must be scaled down a bit.

Because you would have to limit the crit mult way to low for the other skills just to make molten/flicker to be ok. --> I dont consider 500% crit multi too weak at all, I mean maybe you have an unoptimised tree and links and very below average gear? And I am not really lowering crit multi just for flicker and molten, in my scenario with a fixed block meta we need to balance crits all across or they will be even more outrageous than before block impeded them 3/4 of the time.

Again, if you think more than 500 crit multi is needed its because you feel underpowered with the current state of spell block soaking up all your damage, and certain other skills feeling op compared to you because of high base dmg / similar retardation (RF, EA, Molten) or way too much crit chance and multi (flicker)

And spells wont suck more than bows if we level the field *and block*, again *and block*, I think you or anyone who thinks it are heavily delusional. What does it matter if bows got more crit multi nodes when we cap it, derp. And unless everyone wants to run lioneye, spells will be better cuz they can always hit out of block and shotgun.

A cooldown wont fix molten, no ... its easy to counter? If you arent in melee range and it doesnt crit with fire pen linked to it, sure.

How much crit multi are you running anyway and what skill / links?

In short, if block is fixed > spells hit more > spells shotgun and crit more > your enemies are also doing less damage to you because damage has been levelled across the board, you arent forced into a l8z situation where you have to wait to regen just to fall into the same pitfall again > your spells feel more powerful, both in relation to other builds and in their own right.

Besides, if mullaxul said i'm on the right track ... yeah, nn say more really :P

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bermalberist4 wrote:

rofl man, of course I am making up numbers, where did I ever state otherwise? I am proposing ideas to ggg, thanks for noticing space cadet. And yes the current dmg penalty is something like that, its variable reduction like the armor formula, fx with high flicker crits its about 70% reduction from testing. More than my proposed 50%, and its still way too op when the rng favors it (thats the ugly face of criticals right there) which is exactly why crit multi and the skills themselves must be scaled down a bit.

We do not know the damage penalty for pvp so your "look molten would still hit really hard with 500% crit" numbers are just irrelevant.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Again, if you think more than 500 crit multi is needed its because you feel underpowered with the current state of spell block soaking up all your damage, and certain other skills feeling op compared to you because of high base dmg / similar retardation (RF, EA, Molten) or way too much crit chance and multi (flicker)

Did I mention spells vs bow? No block involved, bows are still just better

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bermalberist4 wrote:

And spells wont suck more than bows if we level the field *and block*, again *and block*, I think you or anyone who thinks it are heavily delusional.

yea the reason I think bows are just better than spells are because the bow users blocks all my spells with those quivers..

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bermalberist4 wrote:

What does it matter if bows got more crit multi nodes when we cap it, derp. And unless everyone wants to run lioneye, spells will be better cuz they can always hit out of block and shotgun.

Bows do not need to scale the damage purely on crit (like you have to with spells), so don't really know what your point is with that. It is spells that will hurt from limiting max crit dmg, not bows.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

A cooldown wont fix molten, no ... its easy to counter? If you arent in melee range and it doesnt crit with fire pen linked to it, sure.

molten is a brain and gear check in one skill. If you fail the brain check ("should I go melee that guy with molten?") then it will seam OP and you will need truly gg items to not die (or block). If you on the other hand manage to figure it would be bad to go smash the molten user in the face in melee and instead use something like bear trap or spectral throw then you wont have any problems at all. Sure it could be tedious having to kill them with a sub optimal linked skill as they are recasting molten over than over but that could very easy be fixed with a cd.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Besides, if mullaxul said i'm on the right track ... yeah, nn say more really.

not sure if serious or not..

Haha, who are you guys in pvp for real? Im not here to troll I know wtf pvp is in real games and this games sorry excuse for pvp currently. Also Molten definitely needs a cooldown or a damage reduction. But this is all known, if GGG cared im sure we'll see some changes come March. But currently they haven't given a shit at all, so whatever. We need better arenas with less desynchy shit in them, better server support, better balance and less copy and paste 0 talent RMT bums. We all know this stuff already, its just a waiting game at this point. GGG will either disappoint, half deliver or just flat out do something brilliant.

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Grildrak wrote:

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bermalberist4 wrote:

rofl man, of course I am making up numbers, where did I ever state otherwise? I am proposing ideas to ggg, thanks for noticing space cadet. And yes the current dmg penalty is something like that, its variable reduction like the armor formula, fx with high flicker crits its about 70% reduction from testing. More than my proposed 50%, and its still way too op when the rng favors it (thats the ugly face of criticals right there) which is exactly why crit multi and the skills themselves must be scaled down a bit.

We do not know the damage penalty for pvp so your "look molten would still hit really hard with 500% crit" numbers are just irrelevant.

"

bermalberist4 wrote:

Again, if you think more than 500 crit multi is needed its because you feel underpowered with the current state of spell block soaking up all your damage, and certain other skills feeling op compared to you because of high base dmg / similar retardation (RF, EA, Molten) or way too much crit chance and multi (flicker)

Did I mention spells vs bow? No block involved, bows are still just better

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bermalberist4 wrote:

And spells wont suck more than bows if we level the field *and block*, again *and block*, I think you or anyone who thinks it are heavily delusional.

yea the reason I think bows are just better than spells are because the bow users blocks all my spells with those quivers..

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bermalberist4 wrote:

What does it matter if bows got more crit multi nodes when we cap it, derp. And unless everyone wants to run lioneye, spells will be better cuz they can always hit out of block and shotgun.

Bows do not need to scale the damage purely on crit (like you have to with spells), so don't really know what your point is with that. It is spells that will hurt from limiting max crit dmg, not bows.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

A cooldown wont fix molten, no ... its easy to counter? If you arent in melee range and it doesnt crit with fire pen linked to it, sure.

molten is a brain and gear check in one skill. If you fail the brain check ("should I go melee that guy with molten?") then it will seam OP and you will need truly gg items to not die (or block). If you on the other hand manage to figure it would be bad to go smash the molten user in the face in melee and instead use something like bear trap or spectral throw then you wont have any problems at all. Sure it could be tedious having to kill them with a sub optimal linked skill as they are recasting molten over than over but that could very easy be fixed with a cd.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Besides, if mullaxul said i'm on the right track ... yeah, nn say more really.

not sure if serious or not..

50% overall penalty is pretty hefty, I doubt we have more than that in the game atm. And from testing it didnt seem so.

Relying on crit multi to succeed is bad balance in its own right, but you insist on wanting the metagame of pvp to be a oneshot fest where crits are all that matters.

I like the way you say bows will be ok without crit multi to make it seem as if spells are actually weak if we didnt have everyone and their mother blocking them, when the only bow builds right now in pvp are also based on stacking it to succeed, ie puncture and EA. I wouldnt even call those real bow builds, EA certainly isnt and puncture is there just so that the one time they bypass block they have a pretty high chance of killing you with the degen.

Say what you want, but if you duel a player without a crit build and spell block / PA, your spell build wont seem so weak, assuming you know what you are doing. If you have fx gmp pen fireballs and actually l2p you can do fine with 500 crit multi atm. Crying against having crit in general toned down a bit is absurd. Like I said, we can ask GGG to scale the specific skills up or down in terms of specific dmg output for each one.

I will make one last attempt to make you see my point after this I am out of this thread

I am currently using:

molten(lvl 16)-conc effect-fire pen-chance to ignite with something like 350% crit mult. It is not enough to crit kill anyone but it will kill most people. Before I made the molten gem 20% quality I played with it a lot at lvl 20 (had to use more str on gear for that) and with the same crit mult almost no one would survive a crit. So molten users would not give a shit about any 500% crit limit.
My fireballs on the other hand are currently at 612% crit mult. And they are still not better than a lot of the other stuff in this game (I am not even talking about block). A limit to how hard they could crit would seriously weakens them without changing anything for molten. You would need something like a 300% limit for molten but that would totally ruin the other spells.
Skills should be balanced individuality and not by blanket nerfs.

I am also against this as I am working on a

build

No you still dont have a point at all, sorry. Why do you use fireball of all examples? Its been buffed, you can conc effect it, has amazing average dmg for a spell, very good base crit and decent cast speed. Fireball pen CE, shotguns or not, are powerful as fuck with even less crit multi than that, you prolly have wrong tree / gear setup and hence are relying on crits. I've eaten almost 3k hp from a single fireball with fire pen before, without it shotgunning and he only had maligaro and some crit multi from tree for around 350 crit multi. I wasnt crit weakness cursed.... AND i had the marauder crit reduction. But then spell block rng saved my ass, its that op. In short, some people have l2p issues too and will always think its their build that sucks. Seems all you want to do is stack crit multi and one shot everything when rng favors you over spell block, which as I told you is not balancing anything, its just throwing more fuel into the fire.

And dude srsly ... Marylenes fallacy? It turns your final crit chance into fuck all, even if you have all crit nodes and perfect crit gear and manage to get 7 power charges in pvp lol, first you talk about spells having shit cc and then bring up marylene as a pvp build ... /facepalm, yeah let me rely on a build that eats all my non crit damage and also shits on my crit chance after i invested in xxx worth of gear and took as much crit in my tree instead of hp / es ... just for that 100% extra crit multi.

Need to learn not to wase my time on stuff like this.

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

Why do you use fireball of all examples?

Because it is the skill I am using and have experience with in PvP. I could ofc do like others and talk about stuff I know little to nothing about but I don't really like doing that

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

Its been buffed, you can conc effect it, has amazing average dmg for a spell, very good base crit and decent cast speed. Fireball pen CE, shotguns or not, are powerful as fuck with even less crit multi than that, you prolly have wrong tree / gear setup and hence are relying on crits.

Please tell me how I should scale fireball without crits. Just from the tree I currently have:
230% increased Critical Strike Chance
110% increased Critical Strike Chance for Spells
86% increased Fire Damage
70% increased Critical Strike Multiplier for Spells
56% increased Elemental Damage
50% increased Critical Strike Multiplier
44% increased Spell Damage
20% increased Elemental Damage with Spells
9% increased Cast Speed
4% increased Movement Speed
3% increased Attack Speed
On gear I have:
190% increased Critical Strike Chance
81% increased Critical Strike Chance for Spells
43% increased Critical Strike Multiplier
42% increased Fire Damage
150% increased Spell Damage

My fireball is linked:

Sure I do not have the best gear there is but it is really hard to increase the damage. But if you think I can get more from tree, gear or gem set up pls show me how. I would go as far as saying it would be totally impossible to get more out of fireballs than I am now if you would limit crit like that (maybe you could get more with PA but that would be with a small margin)

Edit: I really dont know why I am even trying as all you will do now is say "l2p" like you knew anything. But please tell me how you think you can make fireballs awesome without relaying on crits the one and only other way to boost it is stacking spell damage/fire damage/elemental damage. And I already have most of them. The only ones I do not have is the 3 6% fire nodes in the templar start, the arsonist circle (marauder area) and PA.

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

And dude srsly ... Marylenes fallacy? It turns your final crit chance into fuck all, even if you have all crit nodes and perfect crit gear and manage to get 7 power charges in pvp lol, first you talk about spells having shit cc and then bring up marylene as a pvp build ... /facepalm, yeah let me rely on a build that eats all my non crit damage and also shits on my crit chance after i invested in xxx worth of gear and took as much crit in my tree instead of hp / es ... just for that 100% extra crit multi.

Wut? Where did I say spells have shit cc (crit chance or do you mean crowd control? Never said any of it anyway). What I have been saying is that spells needs crit to be good and limiting the crit multi would be bad for them. Secondly I didnt say I would use marylenes with spells. I know most people are of the opinion that it totally sucks (so cant really blame just you for being close minded) but I think it has really great potential for fun odd builds. The thing I have in mind is mostly aimed for PvE for sure but I would still think it sad if you would totally ruin it's chances to be valid in PvP.