Last night I had a dream...

I logged into poe forums, pvp section and the first page was literally chockful of dev responses. The adrenaline started pumping into my fists and my brain exploded with nerdgasm, I tried to contain myself from mentally ejaculating, and as fast as I humanly could I headed to the very first post entitled 'RF'

One of the devs had posted saying 'We are aware of the current issues with skills in general not scaling well in pvp, and RF is definitely the first skill that is on everybody's tongues. It is a very scary skill to mess with because we dont know how we would tune it for pvp without altering it for pvm, where we feel its at the best it has ever been. And we also dont want to nerf it to the ground in pvp to the point where certain players with special needs cant enjoy it. Yet we promise a solution is on its way and its one that you guys are going to really like, both those playing with it and against it will be satisfied.

In another thread 'Molten shell is currently being revisited and tweaked in a way that makes it very approachable in pvp but doesnt skew its pvm balance in any way. We actually have a group of 5 people currently working on just this, and other major pvp issues, that we just hired earlier this month.'

And yet lo in another thread .... "We are very aware of the issues plaguing pvp currently stemming from block. Block is too strong, currently it has no downside like acrobatics and it requires far less investment than evasion, and furthermore ... unlike evasion, is not nullified or should we say completely destroyed by things like accuracy and RT. It is basically a weapon you can carry around, a fairly powerful and heavy one too, except you never feel its weight and it doesnt wear you down in any way. When block is coupled with certain keystones and unique items, the problem escalates to the point where it is posing a heavy challenge to our idea of a balanced PvP scenario. For example, block coupled with aegis aurora ... the issue stands out heavily, like a white man in a ghetto. And this is simply unacceptable. We are looking for ways to tune block and the -reduce block nodes in a way that combined with all the other changes to pvp, promotes a healthy pvp metagame devoid of one shot fests and overpowered combos which make for all the current mismatches a lot of players are experiencing."

And in one last tearjerking post, see it was enough for me because I couldnt take it anymore (the emotion was overwhelming, I felt like a menstruating female at the peak of her period hugging the pillow and eating heaps of chocolate and crying her eyes out watching Titanic) ... I see this: 'Spike damage currently is very prevalent in pvp to the point where a lot of builds are instantly devalued because they cant handle it. And you can also have another situaton whereby a top tier geared player with 12k ES or 10k hp can be oneshot by a molten shell, flicker, dual strike crit. Its crazy. So we are taking a few steps to rectify this: Certain one off skills are getting a specific damage effectiveness, just for PvP. Secondly, crit multi is being capped for pvp and we are settling on a fixed damage
penalty, the exact numbers are still being played with and tested, but this is definitely something that is going to happen. Keep your eyes out for more info coming in the next few days.'

Then the alarm rang and I had to go to work. FML

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Secondly, crit multi is being capped for pvp

like spells (other than ek) didnt suck enough you want to remove the one and only way to scale them?

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Grildrak wrote:

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Secondly, crit multi is being capped for pvp

like spells (other than ek) didnt suck enough you want to remove the one and only way to scale them?

You could read the whole thing, the main issue with spells is block. Actually spells are pretty strong with pen gems, you could be eating 60% of all damage AND get shotgunned which attacks dont do. Spells are generally ranged, got status effects on crit too. (Non-bow / wand) Attacks dont got all this. And attacks seems superior because of RT turning them into spells and -block + swords, another big issue.

Block is also the reason shit like siphon, LA, ROA, barrage, frenzy ranged builds etc are completely alienated from the arena.

And capping crit is not removing it /facetothefuckingpalm ... say 400 or 500% max instead of these absurd 900% crit builds, and it was more directed to flicker / melee critters.

Did read everything and agree with most of it. But not that part I quoted. If they would change that, then spells (that are really up atm) would totally be really uselessly bad so I felt I had to say why before we get it implemented without anyone thinking what would happen with spells. Even lowering the crit cap would shit on spell scaling.

And about spells getting better status effects are just not true. Spells (other than discharge that is shit in pvp anyway) only have at max 6% base crit. Compared that to weapons that can roll increase crit chance taking them far over that 6%, run some auras and you are way more likely to add elemental statues effects (plural!) not just one of them like the spells that only deal one kind of damage would add.

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Grildrak wrote:

Did read everything and agree with most of it. But not that part I quoted. If they would change that, then spells (that are really up atm) would totally be really uselessly bad so I felt I had to say why before we get it implemented without anyone thinking what would happen with spells. Even lowering the crit cap would shit on spell scaling.

And about spells getting better status effects are just not true. Spells (other than discharge that is shit in pvp anyway) only have at max 6% base crit. Compared that to weapons that can roll increase crit chance taking them far over that 6%, run some auras and you are way more likely to add elemental statues effects (plural!) not just one of them like the spells that only deal one kind of damage would add.

So you really think anything more than 500 crit multi is cool?

molten shell with CE / fire pen and my proposal of for example 80% effectiveness, 50% penalty, and 500 crit multi can hit .. on a crit .. for 2800 x 3 (200% increase) x .8 x .5 x 5 x .6 = 10k, and a non crit for a very good 2k, considering this isnt even counting RF and PA, or 300-400% increases. And the average dmg on molten shell is very good, not like lightning damage. As you can see, the numbers are still stupid on a crit, but not 50k stupid at least, or 10k on a non crit retardation.

Thats like a d2 pvp dmg numbers : hp pools ratio right there.

Granted not everyone will be running with fire pen CE molten, but you have to think of the worst case scenario in this case.

Spells are still better than attacks because you can get cc / cd from the tree and gear much easier, thanks to not needing RT or accu. And penetration gems take that to a more powerful level.

Yes weapons get some more base crit, bar fucking daggers ... they are broken in pvp imo. I dont even want to discuss them, because I have no idea how to balance that shit. I suppose evasion and block without reduction (since no sword) balances it out more or less. A flicker crit with rmt level gear can shit on everything in the blink of an eye.

Believe me, the problem IS spell block AND spike damage in general. When you are fighting anyone with spell block, you think spells suck because of spell block. Thats 3/4 of your dps cut right there. When you are fighting a 2hand build or super fast EA build, you are taking spike dmg like no tomorrow ... again making you think spells suck dick.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

So you really think anything more than 500 crit multi is cool?

it requires a decent investment and spells really needs it to compete (the none crits deal really pathetic damage) so yes.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

molten shell with CE / fire pen and my proposal of for example 80% effectiveness, 50% penalty, and 500 crit multi can hit .. on a crit .. for 2800 x 3 (200% increase) x .8 x .5 x 5 x .6 = 10k, and a non crit for a very good 2k, considering this isnt even counting RF and PA, or 300-400% increases. And the average dmg on molten shell is very good, not like lightning damage. As you can see, the numbers are still stupid on a crit, but not 50k stupid at least, or 10k on a non crit retardation.

Molten is a poorly designed skill. All it really does is creates a gear check for the opponent. Saying this even though I use it:



But the problem is that it is also very much needed as flicker strike is what it is. Without it flicker strike would just be way to strong in pvp against caster.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Spells are still better than attacks because you can get cc / cd from the tree and gear much easier, thanks to not needing RT or accu. And penetration gems take that to a more powerful level.

Spells are better of at getting crit than some attack but look at the bow crit nodes they are kinda insanely strong. But that is not even relevant. Spells casters do not have any other way of scaling there damage than going for crits. Attacks can go something like RT and ignore crits but still deal higher average damage due to how insane you can scale attack damage with gear, tree and gems.

Btw I did not think I would ever see any one complain over spells in general (other than ek that is special for dealing phys dmg) being better than attacks. Makes me question if we are playing the same game.

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bermalberist4 wrote:

Believe me, the problem IS spell block AND spike damage in general. When you are fighting anyone with spell block, you think spells suck because of spell block. Thats 3/4 of your dps cut right there. When you are fighting a 2hand build or super fast EA build, you are taking spike dmg like no tomorrow ... again making you think spells suck dick.

spell damage is the main problem for spells as it is but even without block I would still argue that bow attacks does the same thing and are just better (projectile speed, life/mana leach possibilities, damage scaling, mana costs) it would be even more one sided in favour of bows over spells if you destroy the spell damage scaling by limiting crit damage multipliers.


One thing I could suggest is giving skills different base crit multipliers just like they have crit chances. That way you could make it harder for problematic heavy hitting stuff like molten to get high crit damage, without throwing all spells in the dirt at the same time.

''But the problem is that it is also very much needed as flicker strike is what it is. Without it flicker strike would just be way to strong in pvp against caster.''

You are still not listening to what I am telling you. Why do you think I am proposing a lowering of crit multi and a fixed pvp penalty in the first place? Coupled with a redesing of block for pvp? To avoid a spike one shot fest and block having superiority in everything else. Imagine a scenario like in d2, where bar the retarded hammerdin and farcast zon dmg, everything did steady but sure dmg. Trappers, bvc, nec, windies ... the dmg wasnt super spiky but it wasnt mediocre either. I think adjusting the numbers in poe for something like that would work out very well.

And certain stuff like RF and shell can be further balanced by having their own further 'pvp effectiveness' % scaling

Spells arent weak. Spell block ( or SB + and phase acro) is powerful, melee crit damage and EA / RF / traps+mines (and except for RF again its actually the crit thats super powerful here) are OP. That is the problem.

If you think that after fixing this block / -sword block stuff and spikey dmg / crits in pvp, you will need more than 500 crit multi, you are on drugs imo.

btw, my molten shell CE pen calculation was off, lol

Non crit 2800 x 3 x 0.6 x 0.5 x 0.8 x 1.69 = 3407
Crit x 5 = 17035

I think molten shell needs more than a 20% effectiveness reduction actually, closer to 35-40% would be good. I left out stuff like extra % increases from tree and gear, iron will, added cold / ltng / chaos, RF / PA more multipliers and shocks. Or else they could do the 20% and also a small reduction in general base dmg for both pvm and pvp.

Now lets take freeze pulse gmp shotgunning with added cold and cold pen (35%)

~360 x 2.5 (gmp) x 3 x 0.6 x 0.5 = 810
Crit x 5 = 4050

The no crit scenario seems underwhelming, but when you start factoring in its decent range and projectile speed, cast speed, and all the extra damage possible that I ignored here, and the fact the entire gmp will crit on a crit, I think its ok overall. Also remember this is a scenario where your enemies also deal far less dmg than they currently do.

The only attacks that are viable in pvp are (a) flicker / dual strike crits - issue being crits (b) sword - because of block pierce - showing how strong block is, and why spell block is part of the issue imo. I dont consider EA since they stick it off surfaces for the explosion.

Physical attacks tend to scale better than spells because of the attack speeds possible, more than actual % increases and base average dmg. Some spells have better increases and base damage than most RT attacks - like fireball. But these are spells that hit all the time beyond block, and can also shotgun. And can crit without sacrificing anything.

Spells cant scale like attacks? Nonsense ... they can scale with a lot of things like their own increases, iron will, conc effect, PA, RF, added x gems - basically the same or similar things to attacks, and yes attacks are usually of the physical kind (no ele attack builds in pvp that work so good) but pen gems take care of the physical penetration comparison. A lot of spells can shotgun, to make up for the lack of similar cast speed in relation to big attack speeds.

But the attacks that you see in pvp are (a) bypassing attack block which spells cant do (b) doing huge crits that is really because of the fact daggers are broken cuz of their huge base crit (staves would be ABSURD with -block lol) and they can get absurd crit multis like 900%+.

If all spells had the same dmg as flicker - which you are suggesting? - ie more molten shell types - everyone would say spells are broken and need a fix too. The answer imo is not to make everything oneshot, that is not a fix but throwing more gasoline in the fire.

You can increase their 'effective' / 'felt' dmg by levelling the field in terms of average dmg output between builds (using specific % effectiveness for certain problematic attacks / spells as both you and I have suggested) and make spells hit at least 3x more often - by 'fixing' or 'nuturing' block's dominance in pvp.

Thats like a d2 pvp dmg numbers : hp pools ratio right there.



In Diablo2 you could over stack resistence+max and neutralize alot of incoming damage. Except for magic damage i.e Bone spirit/spear/teeth and hammers (for a while in .08 early .09 you could until they removed magic resistence from shields). Unlike in this game where penetration gems exist that undermine the idea of overcapping resistence, criticals are obscene and block is dur dee dur and stun isn't handled as well as faster hit recovery was. This game >>>>>>>>> Diablo1-3 all day but its mechanics need to be re-worked to some extent. You had items that didn't cripple your character that allowed you to deal with shit that was otherwise broken 9 out of 10 times. I could tank teams of 7 bugged tals/bugged mana Sorceress's using Fireball,Lightning,Blizzard and Frozen Orb with Raven frost,160cold shield, hot spurs a wisp and intelligent play and beat them all by myself. I have no problem beating anyone/anything in this game, thats not my issue...but I know for alot of people/builds the current state of this game is straight stupid in regard to pvp.


But back to spells and their damage output. Its no mystery that they live off of critical burst damage. But the inevitable nerf to block will bring spells up in the tiers. The buff to cold and light gems,fire skills aswell as smart item/tree choices can make a serious character even with minimal critical multiplier <500% EASILY.

So basically you're on the right page.

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MullaXul wrote:

Thats like a d2 pvp dmg numbers : hp pools ratio right there.



In Diablo2 you could over stack resistence+max and neutralize alot of incoming damage. Except for magic damage i.e Bone spirit/spear/teeth and hammers (for a while in .08 early .09 you could until they removed magic resistence from shields). Unlike in this game where penetration gems exist that undermine the idea of overcapping resistence, criticals are obscene and block is dur dee dur and stun isn't handled as well as faster hit recovery was. This game >>>>>>>>> Diablo1-3 all day but its mechanics need to be re-worked to some extent. You had items that didn't cripple your character that allowed you to deal with shit that was otherwise broken 9 out of 10 times. I could tank teams of 7 bugged tals/bugged mana Sorceress's using Fireball,Lightning,Blizzard and Frozen Orb with Raven frost,160cold shield, hot spurs a wisp and intelligent play and beat them all by myself. I have no problem beating anyone/anything in this game, thats not my issue...but I know for alot of people/builds the current state of this game is straight stupid in regard to pvp.


But back to spells and their damage output. Its no mystery that they live off of critical burst damage. But the inevitable nerf to block will bring spells up in the tiers. The buff to cold and light gems,fire skills aswell as smart item/tree choices can make a serious character even with minimal critical multiplier <500% EASILY.

So basically you're on the right page.

yeah i bet most ppl out of flicker dont even have more than 600 crit multi. So we really need some good overall damage penalty, some specific skills tweaking, and block changes. Question is not what to do GGG, but when will you bloody act?