Race Idea

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Hassefar60 wrote:

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Splift wrote:

Actually look at boofs first reply to the thread, he his agreeing with me.

Boof suggested racing with a "a preleveled and outfitted character". That is not the same as racing with your own character from a permanent league, which is what you (Splift) are talking about (I assume), and what the OP is about.

Ah, my bad. It was actually slicksc's post I was referring to.

In that case I don't really know what this argument is about then seeing as the people im arguing with don't seem to mind the idea and I don't really care about the reward (it was just a mild suggestion that some small reward should be included).

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Splift wrote:

It was a response to his point about someone who has never played past level 35 getting shafted by this idea and my counter argument that someone who has never played past 35 would suck at any race.


Also

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SlixSC wrote:

So nobody cares and it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong, logically speaking. If this is the best you can do you are simply a waste of time.

Ironically its your logic that is flawed if you think somebody can be "logically" wrong in a discussion about opinions. I think you are the one more in the wrong by creating your own definitions for things then using those definitions as your own winning argument.

You can disguise everything as an opinion and then argue that you cannot possibly be wrong.

It is my opinion that 2+3=4. I cannot possibly be wrong, because it is only my opinion. How convenient.

If your argument is not both valid and sound, it is wrong, even if you disguise your argument as "merely your opinion". Doesn't matter, every statement has a truth value assigned to it (law of bivalance), if the truth value of your statement is false the argument is subsequently false aswell.

You are again, conflating two different things. Personal preference and declarative statements.

You are the one conflating two different things. If you are saying that 2+3=4 being wrong and a new race where people choose what character to run with being wrong is the same thing then you need to focus less on using fancy language and more on comprehending that language.

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Splift wrote:

You are the one conflating two different things. If you are saying that 2+3=4 being wrong and a new race where people choose what character to run with being wrong is the same thing then you need to focus less on using fancy language and more on comprehending that language.

You understand that I have no problem with such a race, as long as it is not competitive (=for rewards, prizes). I explained in detail why it shouldn't be competitive, because it violates the principle of fair competition.

Everything else is irrelevant, it doesn't matter that it is merely your opinion that there should be prizes, when your opinion conflicts with the core principle of why we have these competitions in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with having fun and competitive events, but they have to be distinct. A fun race can use whatever ruleset you want, because it doesn't have to be fair. Competitive races, should be as fair as possible, by definition.

Then I suppose I am arguing with you for no reason.

If you look at this snip of my first post in this thread

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Splift wrote:

Whether to have rewards or not will be up to GGG, but imo including some rewards would be nice as long as it is balanced, like perhaps making the rewards have diminishing returns and overall less points than regular races.

They could also include other interesting concepts, like making nothing gained from the race carry over to your characters regular league and having heavily increased drops or fixed chest drops.

You might get the impression that I did not really care about the reward but thought that something small (ie, smaller than regular race rewards) just to get more people involved wouldn't hurt. I was arguing that this race (event, whatever you want to call it) was a great and fun idea.

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Splift wrote:

Then I suppose I am arguing with you for no reason.

If you look at this snip of my first post in this thread

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Splift wrote:

Whether to have rewards or not will be up to GGG, but imo including some rewards would be nice as long as it is balanced, like perhaps making the rewards have diminishing returns and overall less points than regular races.

They could also include other interesting concepts, like making nothing gained from the race carry over to your characters regular league and having heavily increased drops or fixed chest drops.

You might get the impression that I did not really care about the reward but thought that something small (ie, smaller than regular race rewards) just to get more people involved wouldn't hurt. I was arguing that this race (event, whatever you want to call it) was a great and fun idea.

In principle it is of course a good idea to offer people prizes for doing something. But you will find that the rewards for regular racing are so incredibly underwhelming that it's almost impossible to make them any "smaller" for fun events. I don't think prizes for fun events should include points for the season ladder, so we are left with some low level alternate art uniques, that nobody cares about anyway.

I think racing needs more valuable and attainable low-tier prizes in general, to give more people an incentive to do races occasionally. But that's a seperate issue.

Many people get the impression that racing is very lucrative. It really isn't. I have 30 ignamons, 20 brightbeaks and a bunch of other low level uniques in my stashtab (or had before I sold most of them to various different people). For the amount of effort you have to put into racing, the rewards you get are an absolute joke.

That's why most people (myself) included, don't race for rewards but to compete in a fair competition. And this is why we fundamentally disagree on the idea that fun races like the one proposed in the OP should rewards prizes, because rewards in regular races are so poop anyway. If they of course massively increased the "prize pool" for races in general, to encourage more players to race, it would be a different story.

I agree and was thinking that myself, that it would be difficult to actually offer less points for these events yet still have its own scale of rewards system (they would have to give fractions of points lol). Even low level alternate art uniques might be too good because that is what most racers will obtain over several races in a season.

I guess raising the bar for the race rewards in general would be the answer. Although that is a difficult issue in itself because if you make the rewards too good (for regular races) then they become mandatory and defeat the purpose.

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Splift wrote:

I agree and was thinking that myself, that it would be difficult to actually offer less points for these events yet still have its own scale of rewards system (they would have to give fractions of points lol). Even low level alternate art uniques might be too good because that is what most racers will obtain over several races in a season.

I guess raising the bar for the race rewards in general would be the answer. Although that is a difficult issue in itself because if you make the rewards too good (for regular races) then they become mandatory and defeat the purpose.

Yes, that's the fundamental problem. As is, racing simply isn't rewarding enough for your average joe, even some top racers lose motivation because most of the rewards don't seem valuable enough to put in the effort.

I don't think GGG is running risk of making the regular rewards too good, because at this point they are so poop that, if it wasn't for the competition, I personally wouldn't even be racing to begin with.

Rewards in races are so bad, new players should quickly rid themselves of any delusions that racing is the way to go if you want to get rich. This might be true for someone like Helmann (just an arbitrary example) who wins Demi after Demi, but your average Joe simply has no incentive to do races in the first place, because unless you regularly win Demis (which are only ever limited to 1 player per class) you are not making any money/currency/item rewards at all really.

Personally I don't really care to the extent that I would ever quit racing, because I do it for the competition and to improve (and because life is boring), but I understand that it is very frustrating for new players or outsiders who do not race "for the competition".

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SlixSC wrote:

Personally I don't really care to the extent that I would ever quit racing, because I do it for the competition and to improve (and because life is boring), but I understand that it is very frustrating for new players or outsiders who do not race "for the competition".

And competitive racing should be for the competition. That is why the rewards are "poop". Otherwise, race events would be farming zones and players would feel that they "had" to play them to keep up in terms of wealth. Nothing new here, I know we agree.