Problem with Race Rewards

I know that some people already mentioned this in the past but I just can't get over how stupid this is.

When you look at the Reward page, the difference between the top reward and second-to-top reward is 400 points.

Once you hit 600 points, you are most likely better off creating a new account.

Effectively there is a void of 400 points, with absolutely no rewards for the player. So in a sense you get punished for having accumulated alot of points. Why are there no intermediate rewards between 600 points and 1000 points?

The way the rewards are set up simply doesn't make sense, because it punishes players for doing well because your points/per race are worth less and less the more points you accumulate.

If I don't get to 1000 points this season (currently 860) and get to, say 960 points, 360 of my points were effectively wasted, whereas had I just created a new account I would have gotten a second divinarius even. It is a higher quantity of rewards and more frequent.

Not that I really care about the rewards anyway, but the point is not wether or not I care about the rewards, the point is that the way the rewards are structured doesn't make sense.

If anything, players who accumulate alot of points should get a higher quantity and more frequent rewards than the players who have less points.

Think about it this way, someone with 999 points, gets the same amount of season rewards as someone with just 600 points (almost 40% less points). It actually blows my mind how this can possibly be considered fair.

At the time of this post there are 65 accounts with at least 360 points and 25 accounts with at least 600 points. Six of those have at least 1000.

You have the fun races, where the raffle rewards are sort of meant to incentivise racing without necessarily chasing the next reward tier.

You have the competitive races, where the demigod is the main objective.

You have the signatures, where the record and thus the alt art demigod is the main objective.

So in my opinion, those things should be enough to tide you over in the 600-1000 void, all the while aiming for the ultimate 1000pt prize.

Now what happens after 1000 is another point entirely. That is the true void. Ladder ranking is completely meaningless as long as you can stay in top 20, and without some ultimate goal or like you said, enhanced reward system, the previous three things offer little incentive to keep going (let's face it, you've hit 1000, you've probably had your fill of all three).
Maybe that's the point though. You hit 1000, you're done. You've earned a break for the rest of the season. I know I certainly wouldn't want a further reward tier, that's for sure.

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boof wrote:

You have the fun races, where the raffle rewards are sort of meant to incentivise racing without necessarily chasing the next reward tier.

You have the competitive races, where the demigod is the main objective.

You have the signatures, where the record and thus the alt art demigod is the main objective.

But see, this is the problem. If you don't win first or set a record you have effectively lost the race, because 2nd place (at least in signature or competitive) gives you exactly bupkis.

Take it to the extreme, say someone loses a race in 2nd place by 1 xp, they don't need anymore points, given that points are of no value to them, they have effectively wasted the last 1-3 hours... yeah, they came 2nd, perhaps did really well, but in this game 2nd place is first loser (outside of some 1v1 sports, I can't think of any competitive environment where 2nd place gets boned more than in PoE).

It's this sort of binary system that really irritates me, not only are the placement rewards not relative to eachother, if points are of no value to you placing 2nd or 3rd is pointless.

Why don't the top 5 of all classes for example get some sort of small reward, like an extra ignomon, so that way if you come 2nd you don't feel like you've just wasted several hours of your day for nothing. (I mean the race rewards are so shit anyway, would people really complain if racers got a little extra for once?)


Please note, I'm not advocating that GGG throw out rewards like crazy, but give people who come 2nd to 5th in their classes, a small little extra, like an ignomon. That way, you don't feel like complete shit for placing 2nd or 3rd (which relatively speaking is really good).


This could potentially incentivise people to do more races and compete in their respective classes, even if it's just the psychological aspect of knowing there is "a little more to gain", even though the ignomon itself is trash, I sure would appreciate if I got at least a little something for coming 2nd.

I can see it from your perspective too boof, you compete exclusively to win, but most other people (myself included) want to just improve and are not at your skill level (yet).

This philosophy of "only if you win first place do you deserve a reward" is something I cannot agree with, ideologically. I think people who come 2nd or 3rd are still doing extremelly well relatively speaking, but get no rewards at all, unless they need the points... which again is conditional and I don't see why we are even debating this, because if it's only true for some people and not for others there is an obvious problem with the point system itself.

In other words, if there are scenarios in which the reward system no longer works or has a function, the solution is not to go "tough shit", but to improve the reward system, for everyone.

edit: One idea that could fix the 1000+ point problem is to simply reset the rewards when you hit 1000 points. You obviously keep the points, but the Ignomon would be 1007 points, the Heatshiver 1014 points, the Brightbeak 1026 points. That way, while it's not a huge deal, there is at least somewhat of an incentive for players like you, who will always hit 1000 points, to keep going (if they want to), even if it's just a small incentive.

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boof wrote:

You hit 1000, you're done. You've earned a break for the rest of the season. I know I certainly wouldn't want a further reward tier, that's for sure.

This.


I honestly think they should bump down the points required for the highest tier reward.

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katakiri wrote:

I honestly think they should bump down the points required for the highest tier reward.

why - as long as some people are able to reach that goal? There's an intention, how much effort should' be needed to climb the top ^^ And I think it is not very realistic to have one season reward on each 100 points...

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SlixSC wrote:

stuff

I agree that in the very specific scenario where you don't need points, not winning a sig or comp race does feel like a waste of time. I would like to think up a solution for it, but I really can't without flooding the market with a ton of early trash rewards (which giving them out for 2nd to 5th would) or an intermediate 800 pt reward, neither of which I feel is a good idea.
The system is harsh, and imperfect, but maybe in the end that's the point.
In the end, I am most for whatever increases race participation. If that means flooding rewards and an 800pt reward, so be it.

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boof wrote:

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SlixSC wrote:

stuff

I agree that in the very specific scenario where you don't need points, not winning a sig or comp race does feel like a waste of time. I would like to think up a solution for it, but I really can't without flooding the market with a ton of early trash rewards (which giving them out for 2nd to 5th would) or an intermediate 800 pt reward, neither of which I feel is a good idea.
The system is harsh, and imperfect, but maybe in the end that's the point.
In the end, I am most for whatever increases race participation. If that means flooding rewards and an 800pt reward, so be it.

I'm sure there is a middle-ground. I don't think and I'm not advocating that they flood the market with race rewards, but let's be honest race participation this season wasn't good and I would argue that it was, at least in part, due to the shitty rewards and reward system.

I think you are right, awarding 2nd - 5th with rewards (like I suggested) would be overkill, but I'm sure there is a way to make it more rewarding for everyone, that doesn't flood the market with trash race uniques.

I think a system in which, placing 2nd can be considered a waste of time, under specific circumsrances, is just a bad system. People should be happy when they place 2nd, instead the system quite clearly tells you that coming 2nd just makes you first loser.

The problem with race rewards is simple: they're trying to solve two distinct problems with one point system.

There should be a participation point system which only really looks at how many races you play in, and how long you play in each of them. Perhaps 1 point per level gained (highest level character only). Players who accumulate many points over the season should get prizes of the alternate art variety: perhaps not just alternate art uniques, but at the higher levels also things like alternate skill animations, footprints... stuff that normally falls in the microtransaction category. Naturally, these last types of rewards should require a lot of participation to achieve.

There should be a separate competitive point system that only really looks at how much better you did than other players. Only a small number of events should even offer competitive points; most races should be "for fun" affairs which give no competitive points whatsoever, and competitive races should be slotted in times to allow maximum participation (usually Saturdays). Points for this would be based entirely on your position in the final rankings. Those who place top in the competitive point system over the course of the season should get cash.

Yes, seriously: cash. Best advertising dollars you can possibly spend. Real rewards like that draw in pro gamers, serious competition, live broadcasting with color commentators, mass interest. Think of what prize support does for things like Magic the Gathering, Korean Starcraft, and the EVO fighting game championships.

Individual events, both competitive and not, should probably give out some microtransaction points to top finishers — not cash, you need to do amazing over the course of an entire season to get that, but some "product" with some amount of real-world value.

Not a bad idea at first sight, but with one flaw: it favours people that can participate on many/all events (and are non-restricted to specific timeslots per day) even more than now. (for the case of these, "uncompetetive" rewards.

And second: it favours longer races - which are a) not seen as (that much) fun and b) even less possible at all for people with time restrictions...

I'd not say, that this doesnt matter.