ELE LIGHTNING STRIKE - ALL T16s, Shaper, Uber Atziri, HOGM, Chayula, Elder

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Kellen wrote:

Hi! Nice build im using it and works pretty solid with cheap gear. Id like to add something to this discussion:

- Is it possible to use a damage over time main skill modifing the tree (viper strike + melee splash + multistrike)? How would you do it? I'd give it a try for sure, but im pretty new so i dont have enough gear to try it on maps.

Thanks in advance!

Problem with Viper Strike is that it is very hard to scale - even with all the damage over time nodes you will not be doing that much damage especially for maps. You could try with Puncture (maybe with mine + trap for high damage). But I am not sure if Puncture works with trap if you have a melee weapon.

To be honest the dismissal of dodge as a defensive mechanic (especially when you can now reach 40% in passives) is bad. The effective life gained form it is always proportional, so not having it is strictly worse than having it if you're relying primarily on evade.

If you gain 40% dodge you gain 66% eHP against attacks regardless of how much avoidance you already had, and in fact it is a multiplicative increase in your eHP with multiplicative returns.

With that "dodge isn't worth it post" the assumption was made that your eHP gains were always a flat amount and therefore as your Block went up the relative eHP gain of dodge went down. Which is wrong.

If you have 1000 HP and 40% dodge you have 1666 eHP
If you have 1000 HP and 75% block you have 4000 eHP
If you have 1000 HP and 75% block and spec into 40% dodge you now have 6640 eHP

This is because the two reductions are separate from each other not additive, so you always gain the same relative eHP. Just because the numeric value nis "small" does not mean the gains are small. Now whether you need that additional defense or not is certainly personally preference, but assuming that because you go form 3% chance to be hit to 2% there is very little effect is very much in error. You gain the same relative defenses going from 3% to 2% as you do going from 30% to 20% or from 100% to 60%. In a simplified sense of course, there's some rounding there.

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Autocthon wrote:

To be honest the dismissal of dodge as a defensive mechanic (especially when you can now reach 40% in passives) is bad. The effective life gained form it is always proportional, so not having it is strictly worse than having it if you're relying primarily on evade.

If you gain 40% dodge you gain 66% eHP against attacks regardless of how much avoidance you already had, and in fact it is a multiplicative increase in your eHP with multiplicative returns.

With that "dodge isn't worth it post" the assumption was made that your eHP gains were always a flat amount and therefore as your Block went up the relative eHP gain of dodge went down. Which is wrong.

If you have 1000 HP and 40% dodge you have 1666 eHP
If you have 1000 HP and 75% block you have 4000 eHP
If you have 1000 HP and 75% block and spec into 40% dodge you now have 6640 eHP

This is because the two reductions are separate from each other not additive, so you always gain the same relative eHP. Just because the numeric value nis "small" does not mean the gains are small. Now whether you need that additional defense or not is certainly personally preference, but assuming that because you go form 3% chance to be hit to 2% there is very little effect is very much in error. You gain the same relative defenses going from 3% to 2% as you do going from 30% to 20% or from 100% to 60%. In a simplified sense of course, there's some rounding there.

Hey man, thanks for the post.

I think you are mistaking my conclusions about Dodge. Yes the effective HP increase is large, and the % increase to your damage avoidance % is also very large. However you are focusing on the numbers on paper, and not considering what actually happens in the game. Our damage avoidance % is ALREADY extremely high without Dodge, and you are correct that Dodge makes it even higher. But it is overkill and not really necessary. You have to look at Dodge within the context of our other defenses and how they work - i.e. consider that this build is using high evasion + blind + enfeeble + max Block. You will then realize that you are spending a lot of points for something that will only come into play much less often than you first think.

For regular Dodge - I can explain why on paper it seems so attractive, but when you consider how evasion works and how we can max Block (but cannot max Dodge) - spending points to get Dodge does not become that worthwhile. Let me first mention Spell Dodge - as I have said before, I really like this node and it is great because we do not have any other way of avoiding spell damage except for spell block. However we waste so many points going through Dodge - which we do not need. You are essentially spending 7 points for 30% spell dodge, which to me is not worth it. If you are REALLY having trouble with a spell boss like Temple Piety/Dominus/Mageara - you can swap to Saffell's Frame for your defenses because you get a HUGE boost to maximum resistances.

Back to regular Dodge. I think when people try to prioritize Dodge in this build when they already have high evasion and max block - they forget 2 related things: Evasion ENTROPY, and TIME spent in battle. I too used to be adamant about Dodge, however someone suggested I unspec from it and see if it made a difference. So I tried that and I did not notice any difference against regular attacks. I believe this is because:

- Evasion Entropy - when we do calcs on paper we are forgetting that evasion has a counter, our calcs are only looking at a single, probabilistic point in time. Evasion's entropy is more like a step function over a period of time T: we have 100% chance to evade a hit for some time, and then 0% chance to evade a hit over the remainder of time T. You can increase the 100% time span (out of the total time T) by increasing your evasion rating, using Jade flask, Blind + Enfeeble, etc. When the 0% time hits - this is when our Dodge and Block kick in.

But here's the thing - my 100% chance to evade time span is very long - and can be made extremely long when I pop a Jade flask that has a ~100% increased evasion mod. So my Dodge and Block are only being applied to the small window of time when my evasion fails. In this case I have 75% block - so is it worth spending 7 points to get 40% dodge that will only apply to the small window of time when my evasion fails when I already have 75% block during this period? The key is that my dodge and block are NOT constantly being utilized - they ONLY come into play AFTER my evasion fails. This is when time in battle kicks in:

- Time in battle / Hit Frequency: more time in battle = evasion more likely to eventually fail. This is the same as hit frequency: i.e. more hits/sec = evasion more likely to fail sooner. In one case we are traveling further across the time span T so we are more likely to hit the 0% chance to evade time period, in the 2nd case we are squeezing time T essentially. It is the same concept. This is when Dodge should come in handy, however getting 40% dodge is decreasing my chance of taking damage (assuming my evasion fails) from 25% (max block only) to 15% (40% dodge + max block). Is that worth 7 points? I already spend so little time in battle - white mobs are killed so easily with this build so the only cases when you are spending a lot of time in battle is against high HP bosses, i.e. Dominus 2nd form or Oak, in that case - would you rather have:
a) 25% chance to take damage (when evasion fails) + 7 points in life, OR:
b) 15% chance to take damage (when evasion fails) and NO points in life?
You could also put those 7 points into DPS so that you leech faster and also spend LESS time in fights (this is also why I use Culling Strike).

You may then ask: why not unspec from Block and just use Dodge (since they both only come into play during a small time window). The problem is we can never max Dodge and Spell Dodge, unlike Block and Spell Block which we can max to 75%. Maybe some time in the future when more items are introduced for Dodge we could max Dodge, in which case I would switch to Dodge because x% Dodge is greater than x% Block as there are no downsides to Dodging.

Some people are willing to make the trade off I outline above just so they can get to Spell Dodge, and I have outlined Dodge as OPTIONAL in the guide. Overall I think late game (level 90+) when you have gotten as much life/DPS from the tree as you reasonably can, then going into Dodge makes sense. But using 7 points for Dodge and skipping 7 close life nodes that you could get when you already have high evasion and max block is not worthwhile in my opinion.

If you want to check my relevant videos to compare, see list below. I specc'd out of Dodge, and then after patch 1.0.0. when Dodge got buffed I spec'd back into Dodge, I then spec'd out again. I could hardly notice any difference with the Dodge, and preferred having life instead.

With Dodge. I had about 2.5K health:
- Level 77 Shipyard
- Level 77 Shrine

Without Dodge. I had about 3K health:
- Level 76 Precinct
- Level 76 Crematorium
- Level 74 Gorge

Without Dodge. Post 1.0.0. I had about 4K health:
- Level 78 maps
- Level 72 Jungle Valley

Hope this helps. Interested in hearing what you think.

I just have to say... we *can* max dodge and spell dodge. they have a defined limit to what is available in game. That limit is lower than the block cap and yes dodge may be overkill. While block is "worth it" to spend on in the sense that it has a higher potential coverage.

But dodge, like evasion, does not have an associated stun animation. And I personally would like not to be stunned. Can't help it. Getting stunned sucks.

I am also very veryu aware of everything you said, and I respect that you say it isn't required (it isn't) but dismissing it as having marginal returns only works in a subset of situations. And +66% eHP is +66% eHP.

But then, I'm a sucker for avoidance. And "need" is a very finicky word. There's literally no other 6 point expenditure that will get you as much defense as the dodge cluster will later in a build. whether you need that defense or not is an entirely different beast of course.

as an aside: You're in a weird special case where you have hilariously low life. Which is going to make the life attractive in favor of dodge. I'd have personally specced out of some Block instead of the dodge, because the relative loss in defenses would have been lower and had greater total gains.

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Autocthon wrote:

But dodge, like evasion, does not have an associated stun animation. And I personally would like not to be stunned. Can't help it. Getting stunned sucks.

True - but you are already avoiding a lot of damage. The damage that gets through - how often will this have a stun attached? And if it does - you have 30% chance to avoid stun from Heart of Oak, as well as an implicit 50% chance to avoid stun (if Heart of Oak fails) from any Energy Shield you may have up. So stuns are very rare. I see them most on Vulnerability maps when I rush against a large pack of mobs and have not blinded/enfeebled yet. Apart from that the stuns are just extremely rare.

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Autocthon wrote:

I am also very veryu aware of everything you said, and I respect that you say it isn't required (it isn't) but dismissing it as having marginal returns only works in a subset of situations. And +66% eHP is +66% eHP.

Yes, it has great returns but only rarely. Basically the only time you would have wanted to have Dodge is when your evasion + max block fails. However, on average/over the long run, which is what I tried to point out, the returns are marginal/not noticeable because your evasion + block is just THAT good.

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Autocthon wrote:

But then, I'm a sucker for avoidance. And "need" is a very finicky word. There's literally no other 6 point expenditure that will get you as much defense as the dodge cluster will later in a build. whether you need that defense or not is an entirely different beast of course.

We are agreeing on the same thing - that Dodge is powerful - taken by itself. No one is doubting that. But you are not taking into account the tradeoff (more life) and the lack of benefits Dodge will give you in this build.

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Autocthon wrote:

as an aside: You're in a weird special case where you have hilariously low life. Which is going to make the life attractive in favor of dodge. I'd have personally specced out of some Block instead of the dodge, because the relative loss in defenses would have been lower and had greater total gains.

You are missing that life was buffed on the tree for everyone, so getting life is even more attractive than before, and the opportunity cost of missing out on life is thus even greater. Please also keep in mind that life was buffed when GGG introduced harder areas and new map bosses - most of which were as hard as map bosses 4+ map levels above them (Residence comes to mind) so 2.5K life back before the patch for a mapper is not really the same as 2.5K life after the patch. I don't think my life is "hilariously" low either.

Question for you: are you playing this build? If so - try it with and without Dodge and see. If you have Blind and max block, I doubt you would notice any difference. Again, I tried this myself and spec'd in and out of Dodge and ran many tests but I could not notice any difference. Best test I ran was the Precinct map with Vulnerability, which was my first high level map test after unspeccing from Dodge. I was surprised with how strong evasion + max block still was because in my head and on paper the huge 40% of Dodge (and resulting EHP boost it seemed to give) seemed irreplaceable. Not only did the build still perform extremely well, I could not pinpoint any difference in gameplay. This is because of what I mentioned above: evasion entropy and time in battle.

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Ceryneian wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

But dodge, like evasion, does not have an associated stun animation. And I personally would like not to be stunned. Can't help it. Getting stunned sucks.

True - but you are already avoiding a lot of damage. The damage that gets through - how often will this have a stun attached? And if it does - you have 30% chance to avoid stun from Heart of Oak, as well as an implicit 50% chance to avoid stun (if Heart of Oak fails) from any Energy Shield you may have up. So stuns are very rare. I see them most on Vulnerability maps when I rush against a large pack of mobs and have not blinded/enfeebled yet. Apart from that the stuns are just extremely rare.

Can't really do any arguing there. Moistly because I can't make any real statements about how often your ES is up when you get hit.

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Yes, it has great returns but only rarely. Basically the only time you would have wanted to have Dodge is when your evasion + max block fails. However, on average/over the long run, which is what I tried to point out, the returns are marginal/not noticeable because your evasion + block is just THAT good.

Actually Dodge is checked before block.

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We are agreeing on the same thing - that Dodge is powerful - taken by itself. No one is doubting that. But you are not taking into account the tradeoff (more life) and the lack of benefits Dodge will give you in this build.

The lack of benefits (IMO) are subjective but I'll get back to that.

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You are missing that life was buffed on the tree for everyone, so getting life is even more attractive than before, and the opportunity cost of missing out on life is thus even greater. Please also keep in mind that life was buffed when GGG introduced harder areas and new map bosses - most of which were as hard as map bosses 4+ map levels above them (Residence comes to mind) so 2.5K life back before the patch for a mapper is not really the same as 2.5K life after the patch. I don't think my life is "hilariously" low either.

Question for you: are you playing this build? If so - try it with and without Dodge and see. If you have Blind and max block, I doubt you would notice any difference. Again, I tried this myself and spec'd in and out of Dodge and ran many tests but I could not notice any difference. Best test I ran was the Precinct map with Vulnerability, which was my first high level map test after unspeccing from Dodge. I was surprised with how strong evasion + max block still was because in my head and on paper the huge 40% of Dodge (and resulting EHP boost it seemed to give) seemed irreplaceable. Not only did the build still perform extremely well, I could not pinpoint any difference in gameplay. This is because of what I mentioned above: evasion entropy and time in battle.

Let me put this another way.

If you had, instead of switching out the dodge, switched out 10% block you would have maintained your spell avoidance and kept more physical avoidance while getting essentially the same bonus life. 12% block would have worked too, giving up ~.5% spell avoidance. And retaining ~78% physical avoidance. All while getting your same HP returns.

Or in another way, from a purely defensive standpoint, you traded 66% more HP for 25% more HP. Whether that trade was "worth it" has more to do with how you value flat life vs theoretical etc. I personally would have kept it and switched out DPS nodes, but I play solo and place little emphasis on clear speed. And I find that a handful of DPS nodes (unless they're crit nodes) does little to affect my speed anyway.

I'm not *currently* playing your build, but I have played multiple similar builds. Though I've settled for a very niched non-EB MOM build.

- My ES is up quite frequently. I fought 2nd form level 78 Dominus with my shield up most of the
time. It suffers against spells because I have less damage avoidance against spells.

- I know Dodge is checked before block. That's why I wrote: "Basically the only time you would have wanted to have Dodge is when your evasion + max block fails."

- "Whether that trade was "worth it" has more to do with how you value flat life vs theoretical etc." Exactly, and how often that theoretical increase actually gets used.

- You do raise an excellent point which is what I think you were trying to get to, but I failed to see: what if I unspecc'd 6 points from block (losing 12% block and ~12% spell block) and 1 point from phys damage and put those 7 points into Dodge? I believe it would be stronger than what I have, and I'd love to test that! I'll be losing half my ES so my theoretical hit points would not be ~5K but around ~4.5K, and that is part of the tradeoff. But thank you for pointing this out!

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Ceryneian wrote:

- My ES is up quite frequently. I fought 2nd form level 78 Dominus with my shield up most of the
time. It suffers against spells because I have less damage avoidance against spells.

- I know Dodge is checked before block. That's why I wrote: "Basically the only time you would have wanted to have Dodge is when your evasion + max block fails."

- "Whether that trade was "worth it" has more to do with how you value flat life vs theoretical etc." Exactly, and how often that theoretical increase actually gets used.

- You do raise an excellent point which is what I think you were trying to get to, but I failed to see: what if I unspecc'd 6 points from block (losing 12% block and ~12% spell block) and 1 point from phys damage and put those 7 points into Dodge? I believe it would be stronger than what I have, and I'd love to test that! I'll be losing half my ES so my theoretical hit points would not be ~5K but around ~4.5K, and that is part of the tradeoff. But thank you for pointing this out!

There we go finally got the point I was trying to convey across.

Edit: I'd probably spec out of 3 Life nodes and three damage nodes (your weakest of each) trading ~7% life and ~7% damage for a virtual 10% block and 7.5% spell block. That's a lot of spell block (That's essentially the other reason I would never skip Acrobatics... It has PA attached). In a perfect world you wouldn't need ES to go with your HP, but that's a different discussion (and about 5% less stun avoidance compared to ES+HotO, and along the lines of 14% less sgtun avoidance for the three combined).

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Autocthon wrote:

Edit: I'd probably spec out of 3 Life nodes and three damage nodes (your weakest of each) trading ~7% life and ~7% damage for a virtual 10% block and 7.5% spell block. That's a lot of spell block (That's essentially the other reason I would never skip Acrobatics... It has PA attached). In a perfect world you wouldn't need ES to go with your HP, but that's a different discussion (and about 5% less stun avoidance compared to ES+HotO, and along the lines of 14% less sgtun avoidance for the three combined).

Interesting, in that case the trade off for Dodge by removing Block is worse than I thought. I follow your virtual block math, but can you layout your life and damage math: how does removing 3 life nodes and 3 damage nodes = trade of ~7% life and ~7% damage? The life nodes are 8% each and the damage nodes ~8% - 12% each.

For those trying to follow Autocthon's "virtual block": if you had 75% block - getting 40% dodge is equivalent to adding 10% extra block:
- Damage avoidance with only 75% block = 1-75% = 25%
- Damage avoidance with 40% dodge and 75% block = (1-40%)x(1-75%) = 15%
- In the first case a) if you had 10% extra block (i.e.) 85% block, your damage avoidance would equal 1-85% = 15%, which is equal to 75% block + 40% dodge total damage avoidance of 15%

Same thing for spell dodge - If you had 75% spell dodge and got 30% dodge - you are effectively adding 7.5% spell block.

Interesting way to think about it

You have (accoring to the listed information) 194% increased life, or 294% total life. Removing 3 8% life nodes reduces that to 270% total life, or a roughly 7% loss in life. Give or take a %.

Damagewise you have in excess of 200% increased physical damage, so losing your three weakest phys damage nodes will have marginal effects on your DPS (though I didn't check what nodes you are specifically using phys damage nodes average around 8-12% each so I just assumed parity with life loss).