Races: Unrealistic for Average gamers?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is because GGG is trying to use a single, schizophrenic point system instead of two separate point systems with different roles.

Pretty much this, I don't understand how GGG has been unable to grasp this after many months (even in CB this was an issue already). What's so hard about separating competitive gaming (ladder/signatures & demigod rewards) from casual racing (uniques) using different sort of point systems for different purposes.

Only Descent & Competitive types should give points towards ladder & demigods; you would only get demigods at the end of the season for top20 or winners of signature races. NO demigods for single races, make them even more scarce and 'unique'.

The uniques rewards should be scaled using 'Fun' types as a basis (not having to do a million races to get rewards), I mean, the rewards are mostly shitty anyway so who cares if you reduce the grind substantially.

I raced quite a bit in season 1, usually getting last or 2nd from last tier. I forget how many points I got overall, but it was pretty low. I learned quite a bit just from a few races, and by looking at the gear/skills people used that were higher than me.

I skipped season two, because I just wasn't in the mood to race.

I've jumped into season 3 and have done quite a bit better than I had anticipated. I am more knowledgeable about racing and about choosing which class/skills to go for, and I'm a bit better and judging map layouts (though the race earlier today gave me a prison level 2 map that was a horrible, horrible maze). I've got 20 points so far, which is double what I thought I'd have. I'm content aiming for the 80 point reward, and I'm not sure if I'll get that due to schedule conflicts, failed races, burnout, etc. Would I like to get Taryn's Shiver? Heck yeah, I have an ice caster that it would be perfect for, and the alt artwork is awesome. Will it happen? Hell no, but I'm OK with that.

What I like about the races now, is that reaching the first few tiers is doable by anyone who puts forth any effort, and they allowed for lower point rewards. Even getting 1-3 points per race, and only racing on the weekends, can get you two tiers. This allows the more casual players to participate and still get something out of them. Then, as they learn more about the style of racing, they can slowly make their way into the higher tiers.

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FuliginCloak wrote:

...my argument is that honour should only be attained by the obsessive and the excellent, not be built on a gradient where even someone like me, a mediocrity (if by focus in life if not by innate skill) could max out the reward system. That cheapens the reward system for everyone. Sure, we all get our stuffed bear at the end of the day, but who is really proud of their stuffed bear if everyone around them also has one?

Well part of my implied argument, which wasn't explicitly stated so forgive me for being ambiguous, is that I don't play for honor, nor do many other people out there. And at the same time, no one is going to deny that we recognize those people at the top. But what's wrong with having something for the average people or even the people at the bottom? I play for the PVE aspect of the game and might dabble into the PVP a bit, so my goal is to earn a unique from the races to enhance my PVE experience and I could care less about comparing myself to others in terms of skill.

And if the races were meant to be played for the purpose of honor, then why offer prizes at all? Honor should be honor's own reward in this case. And in that case, I wouldn't feel bad at all and might even participate in a few more races for the heck of it. But because prizes ARE awarded, it shifts the dynamic of the races completely. This game was built upon having good player experience, rewards, and incentives, in contrast to a game such as League of Legends, whose rewards for winning the match are close to nothing because the game IS based on honor and skill, and in which gratification is found in winning the competition.

A quote by Chris Wilson from the Descent Race Update "We're extremely excited about this patch. It has taken an immense amount of effort and is really fun to play. If you've been waiting for a fresh league to play some new characters, tell your friends and join us on June 7. See you there!"

This implies that the races were for fun, and for people of all skill levels. My point is that the races fail to embrace this aspect as it fails to make the game fun for the average player.

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FuliginCloak wrote:

The low level stuff is for people who only get a chance to play a few times a week if that, the middle-level stuff are for gamers who put a solid amount of time into the game, and the top flight stuff is for well, top flight gamers what put as much time into PoE as most mortals put into their careers.

But that's my point. I'm not one of these "twelve hours a month" gamers that you speak of. I put in on average 3-5 hours per day, and more on weekends, time permitting. I would say that would label me as a player that puts a solid amount of time in the game, and even then I don't feel like I would be able to realistically aim for these "middle-level prizes".

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FuliginCloak wrote:

Absolutely. I'll take a challenge that I cannot beat, with a series of attainable goals I can beat, over some tepid contest that anyone with half a brain and twelve hours a month can beat. Give me something to really pit myself against, at the level of cunning, mechanical mastery and stamina—that's what PoE is about.

Then this goes back to my argument for purpose of playing. You said you identified as a gamer who plays this game more accurately to what I self-described, but you still also enjoy this aspect of honor and skill. But I don't want to race for that reason. You claim you know what POE is about, but that is quite frankly, false. What POE is about, is subject to opinion and not something that can be determined by any one individual, not even the creators themselves. It is in actuality, something that cannot be defined as there are too many reasons and variations for playing the game. You may be able to come up with the most "popular" reason, but that still would not adequately encompass what "the whole game is about".

Off topic, that is not to say I don't enjoy challenges. Like I said earlier, I would enjoy races more if the prizes were negligent or nonexistent, but if I was able to choose the way I was challenged, then I would prefer a very difficult dungeon that I would be able to face with my theory-crafted, full equipped character, that I spent much time researching and perfecting every subtle nuance of his build, to test my own creation.

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FuliginCloak wrote:

What I definitely do not want, and appreciate GGG for, is to be patted on the back like a good boy, and handed a dumb lollipop because, gosh darn it, at least I tried. This is an entirely different school of game design that you are referring to. I'd rather not see PoE descend into the Everyone Wins + Achievements realm, do you?

No, I can honestly say I don't want GGG to generalize achievements in a way where everyone wins and devalues individual achievements, but continuing your metaphor, what's wrong with a lollipop? A Lollipop is a small, simple, insignificant, yet gratifying reward. It plays no threat to lower the value of the achievements of those people at the top with ribbons and trophies.

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FuliginCloak wrote:

The whole concept of participating in races at all is just one component of its flexibility as a gaming system.

I disagree. The mere existence of the race and option of participating gives players a feeling of "If I work hard enough, I can get that!" Which prompts many people to attempt the races, with only a handful succeeding and the rest failing and not feeling too good about themselves. Or you can skip the whole process and feel crummy from the start when you realize you don't have the time to participate in the event. In the end, this is a game. I respect those who choose to take this game seriously, but I don't play this game to experience inequality and to remind me of my mediocrity.

You also claimed that there are too many bases to cover to make this game flexible for every situation. That may be true, but only to the most extreme extent. As suggested by someone else in this thread, why couldn't events be separated by serious and casual gamers? That would give everyone a place to go to, even those in between who are able to test out both sides if they're feeling more casual or competitive. My original argument was to create a tournament of sorts, that highlights and emphasizes the skill and mechanical mastery of top players and those who wish to test themselves through preliminary rounds. Those would serve to ease the mental states of those disturbed by the races.

Perhaps I should define what I mean by 'honour'. Essentially what I am trying to describe here is that the highest levels of the prize system should be something special, something you have to really put forth an extra level of effort for. Whether or not you desire to see your name on a ladder (and for myself, I couldn't give a fig about that) is beside the point as it is a personal honour, again within that definition, that you acquire by beating something you worked hard for. I perhaps mean the term in the more traditional sense, where one would strive to remain true to themselves and all that stuff, not in a sense where one needs external recognition of that.

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But what's wrong with having something for the average people or even the people at the bottom?

Nothing at all, and that is what the gradient of prizes exists for. At the entry level, one need only dabble in racing to get the ring. One need only dabble once or twice more to get the boots. These lower level prizes are very easy to come by, I got the ring in two races last night and I didn't even do very well in either of them, I just slid by on the basic points. If I stopped now, I would have the prizes I deserve. If I continue trying there are more to be had, and as I put forth more effort, there will remain more prizes to be had. That's the thing, with a scale that goes all the way up into the realms of the 14 hour per day machine, I know I always will have something to strive for.

This comment applies to my lollipop metaphor as well. We have our lime flavoured dum-dums, but if we go further we can get some other really cool stuff too. That's why I don't really understand the complaint here. We have a gradient that goes from very easy to win prizes, to very difficult to win prizes. There really is something for everyone, but you can't get the blue ribbon unless you're willing to make PoE your life for a while. I'm not, personally, but I respect that others do and I'm glad they have something to work for as well as myself.

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But that's my point. I'm not one of these "twelve hours a month" gamers that you speak of. I put in on average 3-5 hours per day, and more on weekends, time permitting. I would say that would label me as a player that puts a solid amount of time in the game, and even then I don't feel like I would be able to realistically aim for these "middle-level prizes".

I'd put myself as around the same, though perhaps only 1-3 hours a day. I have absolutely no expectations for winning the grand prizes, but I am shooting for somewhere in the middle, I haven't decided yet as it depends on my schedule. If I beat my goal, I'll be pleased as punch.

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You claim you know what POE is about...

Given that the first clause of my sentence referred to what I want out of the game, I thought it was clear these were my reasons for liking PoE. Of course there are as many reasons as there are people.

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I would prefer a very difficult dungeon that I would be able to face with my theory-crafted, full equipped character, that I spent much time researching and perfecting every subtle nuance of his build, to test my own creation.

Have you tried Descent mode yet? It's a lot like that, and I'm having a blast with the mode. It's a predictable dungeon type scenario with monsters you can count on, so you know what to face and how to plan for it, and it ramps all the way up to Merc difficulty in 15 levels, so very challenging.

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Which prompts many people to attempt the races, with only a handful succeeding and the rest failing and not feeling too good about themselves. Or you can skip the whole process and feel crummy from the start when you realize you don't have the time to participate in the event.

Fair enough. I have a more tolerant (or less competitive) personality that most people I suppose. For me, winning the top prize isn't important, it's beating the level I thought my limit was at. I didn't really compete in the first season, I got no prizes as I was busy with other-life and wasn't really interested in racing. But I got hooked on the second season and now the third.

I don't see how you can disagree that the choice of being able to race adds flexibility to the game as a system. You might feel it is frustrating because it presents something you cannot beat without going nuts and playing from wake 'till sleep, but how does that negate that the ability to do so is not flexibility?

Of course, now we're wading into interesting philosophical territory of whether or not freedom actually makes one happy, but that's for another thread. :)

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As suggested by someone else in this thread, why couldn't events be separated by serious and casual gamers?

Well, again, I think they've already done that by creating a prize gradient rather than just giving out absolute top-flight prizes to the #1s. The existence of a gradual slope of points with which you can accumulate cool rewards is your "casual" gamer reward.

I don't see why a separate league is necessary for what already exists.

Having just had my first race as well, I know that I won't really be able to push too hard. The race schedules just don't work for me since they're mostly during the day.

That said, the few that I can catch may be able to get me a trinket or two to play around with, so who knows.
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Maybe an asymmetric race is needed. Give me the same time limit, but let me do it when I've got the time to be able to do it? The last race of the day just ended, and I won't have an opportunity to participate again for awhile.

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Hornet85 wrote:

Used to be more races to accommodate people with different time zones, but some selfish a-hole had to complain about it and now GGG had reduced the race density. Some days are depressingly empty and I couldn't play any.

Back in season 2, I could play at least 2 race a day.

This.

Like wth, why nerf the S3 schedule? GGG claims people bitched about too many events in S2, but I never heard that. I heard the exact opposite from people I play with: more races accomodates more people & RL schedules.

From the threads I've read, only the no-lifers & top racers bitched. Good job guys.

As mentioned before for average/casual players is impossible to get higher tier rewards than these for 80 maybe 135 points. If some average/casual player is playing races for rewards and he wants reward which is in 220+ points range then he should invest time into farming maps instead of races.

Anyway imo skilled players don't play races for rewards but for competition with another skilled players. And if I look on their stream then I can see that they already have all that rewards or have so much currency with which they can buy every single reward multiple times. So from this point I don't see the point of having higher tier rewards.

I think that GGG should let player pick which reward he wants for points he already have and make cost of rewards in points something like this:

7 pts Blackheart
7 pts Sin Trek
12 pts Shavaronne's Pace
24 pts Leather Belt
30 pts Eye of Chayula
55 pts Sundance
85 pts Reaper's Pursuit
140 pts Windscream
240 pts Rainbowstride
400 pts Taryn's Shiver
(in total 1000 pts, like now)

Each reward can be chosen only once. So for example: if I will have 55 points then I can choose to pick: Blackheart, Sin Trek, Shavaronne's Pace and Leather Belt or Sundance or keep them for later rewards. Imo this system will be more friendly for average players and skilled players will get all rewards anyway.

And if someone from GGG is worried about flooding market with race reward items then they can make rewards account bound (Why not? You deserved that reward for participating in races so it should be forever yours). And afaik imprints from ethernal orbs cannot be traded so "account bound" mechanic is already implemented.

As a pretty casual player who has tried a few races this season, I must say there isn't much incentive to continue. I get out leveled by about 8-10 levels in a 1 hour race. The amount of effort it would take to determine how to close that gap and perform at that level is much too great for the rewards involved. Assuming I could even come close to the top with all that effort, I would still not be able to participate often enough to earn the better prizes.

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Zelpo wrote:

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Hornet85 wrote:

Used to be more races to accommodate people with different time zones, but some selfish a-hole had to complain about it and now GGG had reduced the race density. Some days are depressingly empty and I couldn't play any.

Back in season 2, I could play at least 2 race a day.

This.

Like wth, why nerf the S3 schedule? GGG claims people bitched about too many events in S2, but I never heard that. I heard the exact opposite from people I play with: more races accomodates more people & RL schedules.

From the threads I've read, only the no-lifers & top racers bitched. Good job guys.

The top racers had a point; a no-lifer who played in all the races and did mediocre would be difficult for even a very skilled racer to catch up to. If you were good enough that being on top of the ladder was one of your objectives, this was mighty unfair.

However, the solution to that very real problem was not to reduce the number of races; the solution was to reduce the number of ladder point races. Even after being categorized as "fun," the fun races still give the same reward point payout as the competitive ones...

As I said earlier, the problem is that the point system is schizophrenic, trying to reward both what Fuligin calls "honour" as well as participation. People who participate in fun events can and should get party favors, even if they do rather poorly; but events like this should not be point farms for the ladder.

Once we separate the point system into two separate point systems (one of competition, one for participation), the proper recourse then is obvious: lots of fun races, a relatively small number of serious ones.

If an average racer does all racers he will win the 1000 Point reward no matter what.


Look at Jinsyn. He collects points via Fetid Pool and ends up grinding western forest with horrible 70min merv times on normal and I am pretty sure he will have over 700 points at the ned of the season.


S3 is a catastrophe:

Rips still qualify for RP-->You die you are out should be the system.


A horrible race shedule-->Learn to do shift plans and fill it. The normal players will thank you the no lifers will cry about too many races.


Since there are less races there are less interesting ones and since the race shedule is a disaster most players get barely races modes they are interested in.

No major long term motivation for most players.

The argument "Demigods have no value" is invalid since nobody plays HC or Default anymore.
So the only ones interested in less Demigods are botterboard users.

There are no more currency rewards-->Less racers actually do races.

The alternative Art items are horrible->In S2 there were 2 groups of players the first got onyx amus/karui ward on several accounts the other group went for Tabula rasa.
After that most players stopped racing.

In S3 there will be more belt attempts.



I could easily go for 600 points but I do the same thing like I do with Onslaught(Halfassed Economy Reset league not Turbo) or with Endgame(Stupid MMO Grindfest) in general because I hate that. I don't play!

I am at a point that devs should already give us own leagues, with several modifications and if they don't get renewed characters get moved to the Void league.

The way PoE is developed now is a typical MMO not an ARPG.
Gameplay gets slowed down each time patch since OB and "content" gets added in form of items.
Really? Just look how MMO's try to be successful->Items new better items, new even better items etc.

Descent is rather an attempt how to add content.
Why not add Descent Content after Sceptre of God as variable Endgame till A3x is added?
Instead of fixed rewards you get quest keys or a scroll to leave the area.
You add the difficulty ruthless again with a 100-150% res penalty to make Descent endgame more difficult.
If you beat the last boss your time will be recorded and you get a reward which is better like a CB random chests.