Can someone explain the Shatter Shield math to me?

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https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Shield_Shatter

So the spell deals 326 to 489 Base Spell Physical Damage per 1% Shield Quality, which is basically like 9k damage at 20% quality.
On top of that, it gives you a buff of an extra 400 damage to spells which I figure affects the skill itself.

With Monastery Bell, shouldn't this be a massive spell? I tried to scale it with stat stacking, power charges and crit, frenzy charges, 100% damage conversion... And with high investment I can barely get it to deal 100k dps... Am I missing some mechanic that makes this spell weak?

Thanks in advance.

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Broadsword#0971 wrote:

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https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Shield_Shatter

So the spell deals 326 to 489 Base Spell Physical Damage per 1% Shield Quality, which is basically like 9k damage at 20% quality.
On top of that, it gives you a buff of an extra 400 damage to spells which I figure affects the skill itself.

With Monastery Bell, shouldn't this be a massive spell? I tried to scale it with stat stacking, power charges and crit, frenzy charges, 100% damage conversion... And with high investment I can barely get it to deal 100k dps... Am I missing some mechanic that makes this spell weak?

Thanks in advance.

Isn't it an attack, not a spell?

Link POB so someone can take a look.

What gems have you got it linked to in the shield and what attack are you using to trigger it. It needs to be a shield attack right?

What you are describing does sound pretty OP, being able to trigger that repeatedly, even without maximum support gems. I haven't used either before, so would have to look at the POB to try and figure out if there is a limiting factor or it's something on your setup.

Being able to trigger a 9k damage base spell on every attack for just giving up block does sound pretty broken, and I assume there is more too it. Especially since the items are not very rare. I assume there is something else to it.

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imanubcake#2671 wrote:

Isn't it an attack, not a spell?

My understanding from reading the wiki is, its a spell that triggers when blocking, and a buff that allows the player to buff spells further, but not be able to block during that buff. Meaning the spell can only trigger once every 4 seconds or so.

The weapon however, says that the user will count as blocking whenever they hit the first time with a shield attack. The wiki for the weapon mentions that it will work with the shield and count as blocking even when the buff that prevents blocking is up, and that there is no cooldown associated with trigger the spell by doing this.

Unsure how this translates to not being able to repeatedly spam it on attack, as OP is trying to do. I would need to look at the POB or some guides/data on builds that have been using it.

One thing to mention is that the weapon is fairly recently added. Sometimes it takes a while for interactions to be added in POB. Don't know if this is the case here. You'll need to link it here or show some existing builds that used it last league if nobody else knows and you want someone to figure it out.

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Belegur85#5784 wrote:

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imanubcake#2671 wrote:

Isn't it an attack, not a spell?

My understanding from reading the wiki is, its a spell that triggers when blocking, and a buff that allows the player to buff spells further, but not be able to block during that buff. Meaning the spell can only trigger once every 4 seconds or so.

The weapon however, says that the user will count as blocking whenever they hit the first time with a shield attack. The wiki for the weapon mentions that it will work with the shield and count as blocking even when the buff that prevents blocking is up, and that there is no cooldown associated.

Ah, yea. Was just confused because it says "attack speed" and "attack damage" on the right and didn't check that it does indeed say "physical spell damage"

Yeah it has a lot of interaction. I think I saw some people using it last league, but I don't know a lot about it.

Thank you everybody for your time!

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Belegur85#5784 wrote:

Link POB so someone can take a look.

The PoB is an absolute mess because I tried several different routes and ended up with whatever: https://poedb.tw/pob/eLqEV5Ziid
It's a refurbished character. It's my bladestorm experiment for the last league but I decided to try something on standard before the new league starts.

I proc shield shatter with every attack (shield crush and shield charge) and I use Worthy Foe to make sure I always hit and don't need to get accuracy rating or Resolute Technique.
I had invested in crit and power charges before but damage didn't change much so I switched to trying to stack dex for Briskwrap and Fractal Thoughts. The reason I converted to cold damage was because I thought adding some flat damage with Ice Bite and frenzy charges could pump the damage a bit and add a layer of defense with freeze so I can charge in safely towards big blobs of mobs.

I know the build right now is all over the place, I was planning to fine-tune it after testing it, but I can't even do maps with this (not even with cheat items giving myself 3k dex and 8 frenzy charges). I can do some delve and blood aqueduct and that's it, haha.

Thanks again!

Taking a look. Not sure ill find the answers, but I'll list anything here I notice.

(Edited: Check bracketed explanation in paragraph below for possible reasoning)
Ice bite support does not seem to be fully working with the skill in the POB. Not sure exactly why, but I think it has to do with wording on the skill, "Skills used by you", maybe it doesn't count with the trigger. I'm not exactly sure though, because it is adding some damage, just effectively nothing. I checked your configured frenzy charges, so that's not why. Maybe check wiki, etc. to see if they will work together. I'm assume you want it for the frenzy generation, but at least in POB, it is not adding much dmg and might need to get them from something else like blood rage for example, since you are attacking might be good, if it works with other aspects of the build. Since you only get 3 supports, this is 1/3 of your supports gone. Swapping to say awakened cold pen, is pretty much doubling your POB dmg.

(Edit: Looking at this a bit more in configurations, it doe appear to be adding the flat damage, so I think the support does work with the build, but it is just not good for it, because to damage is not scaling at all. Could be that just all your damage scaling in phys. Actually, now that I think about it, I think what is happening, is that since the flat damage of the skill is so high, the added flat damage of the ice bite is almost irrelevant. Which is why it is only adding 1% damage and why I thought it might not be working at all. Look at using vectors that are scaling other DPS, as you are with double damage, because it doesn't seem like you need more flat damage. Same with herald of ice. Often good, but the flat damage doesn't seem to be particularly helpful in this case.)

Regarding that, if you are intending on using this build for the upcoming league, awakened gems aren't going to be available. Maybe there will be something better, but be aware of it. I think there is a list available at this point, it may not have the numbers though.

Regarding trigger rate, 4 per second is decent, but considering the limitations on this build with the number of supports, and needing to use two specific unique items that block getting other items on those slots, particular weapon, and needing to spec a range of other things, such as mentioned in your posts, like having accuracy constraint on a spell build and needing attack speed, it may explain some of the reasons why your damage isn't getting that high. As related to the initial idea of having a 9k base proccing without cooldown, which sounds pretty good before considering any constraints.

Also, I don't think it can crit, at least not naturally without having a crit value on the skill. So without further base dmg scaling, crit would usually be another candidate for scaling damage, but it might be ruled out.

It may well be that it's possible to improve it drastically, or something has been created that is OP with it. I'm not sure. It certainly seems like there is potential there for it to be busted, but there seems to be some hurdles to overcome. As another example, spells often scale well with skill level. I'm not sure if there is to do that with granted skills, or they are static at that level. It has no tags on the skill, so I don't think the level will raise, and +1 modifiers are typical specifically for gems. Corrupted implicit might help with supports, depending on which you were using. I don't know all the tech for grant skills though. It looks like there is levels relating to the range, but I might be wrong and even if it I'm not, there may not be a way to increase it past that max.

Overall the ascendancy isn't adding much in the way of damage. It might be good, but it's part of the reason why damage numbers aren't bigger. Also, in configurations tab, "Is the enemy taunted" is not selected, which should be for your build, and means it is not counting the increased damage taken form Worthy foe, which I agree works well with what you are doing and I'm guessing why you are using that ascendancy. If you are ignoring budget and availability, maybe you can get that on forbidden jewel, and use slayer for more dps. Though I noticed you are paying attention to defense on the build, and might be wanting champion for that reason. For the bloodline ascendancy, I don't know a lot about that. Maybe it's good, but giving up flasks is also often a big increase in dps/survivability. Unsure, but it's possible there is something better.

Two defensive auras, and herald of ice, which as mentioned earlier, may not be helping dps much. Good to see someone paying attention to defense and not just DPS number on their POB, but it will be a contributing factor to the lower dps. To get higher damage numbers, a lot of these things need to multiply together, taking one or a few out, and the numbers drop off very fast. I don't think it would be much of a stretch to get this POB up to 1 million damage, even without loosing defense. Whether that is something you would want to play, not too sure. It's quite possible it would be possible to make something with busted DPS with this combination though. I would be surprised, if someone already has or you could come up with something, but there are a lot of things to overcome.

There is likely other things, but thats just some of the ones I notice initially. I think you are doing a lot of pathing on your tree as well. That might be contributing to lack of points on damage, and maybe there is a better way to do it. If I was you I would take a look if anyone used this combination in Keepers, and you might be able to find some ideas. If not, it may sill work, but probably needs a bit of work on making sure efficient damage vectors are being used.

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Belegur85#5784 wrote:

Taking a look. Not sure ill find the answers, but I'll list anything here I notice.

(Edited: Check bracketed explanation in paragraph below for possible reasoning)
Ice bite support does not seem to be fully working with the skill in the POB. Not sure exactly why, but I think it has to do with wording on the skill, "Skills used by you", maybe it doesn't count with the trigger. I'm not exactly sure though, because it is adding some damage, just effectively nothing. I checked you configured frenzy charges, so that's not why. Maybe check wiki, etc. to see if they will work together. I'm assume you want it for the frenzy generation, but at least in POB, it is not adding much dmg and might need to get them from something else like blood rage for example, since you are attacking might be good, if it works with other aspects of the build. Since you only get 3 supports, this is 1/3 of your supports gone. Swapping to say awakened cold pen, is pretty much doubling your POB dmg.

(Edit: Looking at this a bit more in configurations, it doe appear to be adding the flat damage, so I think the support does work with the build, but it is just not good for it, because to damage is not scaling at all. Could be that just all your damage scaling in phys. Actually, now that I think about it, I think what is happening, is that since the flat damage of the skill is so high, the added flat damage of the ice bite is almost irrelevant. Which is why it is only adding 1% damage and why I thought it might not be working at all. Look at using vectors that are scaling other DPS, as you are with double damage, because it doesn't seem like you need more flat damage.)


Regarding that, if you are intending on using this build for the upcoming league, awakened gems aren't going to be available. Maybe there will be something better, but be aware about it, I think there is a list available at this point, it may not have the numbers though.

Regarding trigger rate. 4 per second is decent, but considering the limitations on this build with the number of supports, and needing to use two specific unique items that block getting other items on those slots, and needing to spec a range of other things, such as mentioned in your posts, like having accuracy constraint on a spell build and needing attack speed, it may explain some of the reasons why your damage isn't getting that high. As related to the initial idea of having a 9k base proccing without cooldown, which sounds pretty good.

It may well be that it's possible to improve it drastically, or something has been created that is OP with it. I'm not sure. It certainly seems like there is potential there for it to be busted, but there seems to be some hurdles to overcome. As another example, spells often scale well with skill level. I'm not sure if that is a possible to do that with granted skills, or they are static at that level.

Thank you for taking a look! I used Ice Bite as a last resort to try to add some flat damage and see if my double cold to the core nodes could pump the damage by cheating (adding 3k dex is like 120% increased cold damage + double Revitalising Frost is an extra 62% and Elemental Focus and Controlled Destruction give me 78% more damage + all I'd be getting from Briskwrap and Fractal Thoughts), but I have max frenzy charges secured with Ralakesh, I don't need Ice Bite for that. Also, I solved the accuracy rating problems with the ascendancy so I always hit and proc. I have 100% phys to cold conversion so I get full benefits from both extra phys and extra cold damage if I'm not mistaken.

The problem has to be elsewhere, so I thought about doing the same build but with Ice Nova. Turns out, Ice Nova doesn't scale well with any of this either. Even if I cheat and I give myself 15k dex. It doesn't even scrap the 1M damage mark PER CAST.

Let's recap the modifiers real quick (with cheating 15k dex):
- 89% MORE damage from gems.
- 2500% INCREASED damage from gear.
- 1200% INCREASED damage from double cold to the core.
- A bunch of other minor increments in the tree + frenzy charges.

And I can't even get 1M damage with either spell? I don't get it. I rarely use spells so I must be missing something here. I can get into 3M-5M dps with a tight budget for attack builds so I'm a bit lost.

I'll start the new league with Volcanic Fissure or Vaal Blade Vortex, I'm not taking risks, haha.

No worries, probably worth having another look through my post, because I think I was editing while you where typing.

Probably worth checking your POB configuration for one thing. I see what you are saying, it does seem with those factors the damage should be getting higher, maybe there's some other major aspects I'm overlooking that are holding the scales down. There's a lot of things not scaling though. No crit, help from ailments, overlapping/echoing, gem level scaling, less support gems, other buffs from spectres/other build enabling item mechanics.

I'm not experienced at making high dps builds myself, someone else might be able to take a look at what it needs to possible get the cogs spinning on the dps. Was interesting to look at though. GL with the league launch, probably is better with the safe bet.