PoE's ultimate issue is the Beta never stopped

A live service game like Path of Exile is never "finished" as it is constantly evolving. Calling it "beta" is disingenuous.

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Nomancs wrote:

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

To keep the game fresh simply

1)Add new MTX (as they do)
2)Add new / different content (as they do)
3)Add fixes to glitches and errors (as they somewhat do)

Does anyone really disagree with those 3 steps??

Sounds like a dead mobile game with very limited playerbase where people just play only meta. You need to shake things to make it work, like nerf overperforming/overused builds.

So......implement cap limits as they've already done towards us players and call it a day. They've got us capped for various defense aspects and even a few offensive aspects (remember when they nerfed / put a cap on Assassin's poison node?). This is something I don't get, how can some people be FOR nerfs but against cap limits?

Overperforming/over used builds and META is an oxymoron. If there weren't any nerfs and people were truly free to make at least 90% of the skill gems endgame viable with builds then that would lead to..........diversity!!! YAAY!!! There'd be no "need" to follow the crowd with whatever 5 to 10 builds are considered META every few months.

META - Most Effective Tactic Available - was looking for the post where a dude had it but cant find it.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

A live service game like Path of Exile is never "finished" as it is constantly evolving. Calling it "beta" is disingenuous.

Yet again you're confusing "live service" with mandatory nerfing. I literally just posted the 3 steps of accomplishing the goal of being a "live service game". You make it seem like every game HAS to have nerfs to the players. Also, you haven't answered the question:

What is the difference between a game being in beta mode and what PoE is currently?

Here's another question - Do you believe that nerfs are necessary and PoE can't function without them?

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Have any of you noticed that these same issues are the ones that keep plaguing the game for years?? Guess y'all don't remember the massive nerf in 3.15 3 years ago where GGG overnerfed ALL the support gems AND simultaneously buffed the health of all bosses plus the cherry on top buffed monster damage ...or how about 3.14 when they gutted all builds? No? 3.11 Unique weapons nerfs + giving bosses stun immunity instead of increased stun threshold, ring a bell? Surely you couldn't have forgotten about 3.5 the Betrayal introduction where they OVERtuned Syndicate members then had to turn around and nerf them later, Not to mention the start of erasing our Atlas? Elemental hit nerf / change forgotten about? 3.0 perhaps? 2.0 nerfs then? Ohhh guess 1.15 nerfs are too far back or irrelevant then eh?

My point is, this is the same circle jerk / merry go round crap that keeps happening! GGG keeps doing this and people keep going for this acting like it's business as usual. Remember when rogue exiles were introduced? I immediately called them out on a post BEFORE they came into the game, asked GGG to make sure they can't spam Vaal skills and be overpowered. What happened? They came in the game spamming vaal skills, GGG had to "fix" them and turn a blind eye acting as if people couldnt see it coming. Same thing with the Invasion league bosses....outright told them it'd be overpowered beforehand and yet again; back to the drawing board.

You can’t have diversity if there is no meta and overperforming builds nerfs. That is most fundamental thing - people will play most tested and best build there is, you HAVE to force shifts with nerfs. Or you will have shitshow like diablo 3. Also monster buffs are mandatory to compensate for powercreep. We’re in desperate need for another monster buff so campaign and early maps be more in line with t17. To keep game interesting, instead of turning it to idle clicker/walking sim.

I think your confusion may stem from the fact that you have it backwards with what makes PoE a live service game. You say:

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1)Add new MTX (as they do)
2)Add new / different content (as they do)
3)Add fixes to glitches and errors (as they somewhat do)

However, MTX is not what makes PoE a live service game. The game is designed to keep you playing for as long as possible in the hopes that you buy MTX. To accomplish this goal you can just go back and watch Chris talk on making PoE a "forever game". You may have seen it before, but it may be good to watch it again to refresh your memory.

The two cornerstones of player engagement in Path of Exile are

1) new content
2) changes to existing content

When you constantly add new content to the game and try to keep it exciting, you ought to introduce some powercreep along the way. This happens naturally. Crafting seasons like Necropolis and Harvest let players craft gear they'd normally not be able to craft, increasing player power tremendously. Other leagues give players temporary, borrowed power. Switching things up is important to keep things interesting and engaging.

Do they always hit the mark? Certainly not. Nobody's perfect... they have shown time and time again that they've learned from past mistakes.

And to answer your question: yes, nerfs are necessary. In an ever resetting economy the only players actually imapcted by this are the .1% of the player base that actively plays Standard. Frankly, for the better health of the game I give more weight to the satisfaction of the 99.9% that keep the game alive. Nerfs are not "mandatory" in every single game, but games like PoE where the power curve gradually goes up sometimes have to take corrective measures. The times of 5 page patch notes about miniscule -5% damage here, +3% damage there are long over too (and for the better).

If you have to go back to 2013 to make your case about game balance I really don't know what to tell you, Seanchan. What you forget in each and every one of those examples is that there's always been communication between GGG and the player base. Compare GGG to the people who develop Dead by Daylight if you need a point of reference for a successful game that has had some of the worst balance in gaming history, where at every step of the way the player base made great suggestions but the developers never listened.

GGG only stopped mingling as much with the community when things got too real and staff members were personally attacked on forums, Reddit and livestreams on Twitch. You can check back and read Chris' Reddit post history.

And honestly, I have seen too many threads of people implying they'd do a better job balancing the game. Your understanding of balance is very basic where you imply that good game balance means you can take Conversion Trap and do endgame with it. Some skills are just meant to fit a certain niche, be a setup for another, others are meant to be straight upgrades. Doesn't mean you don't see people make skills like Void Sphere of Rending work as an actual build. Sky's the limit.

its weird.

when GGG goes crazy and tries new things in the temp league, people get upset.

when players cry for POE to respect and want permanency on STD, temp leaguers get upset that it takes away GGG's capability of trying new things.

temp leagues has always been the testing ground for things to go core.

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

Let's say you have a house or a car that was finished Sept 2013 and you had the keys handed to you. Are you expecting those same makers to come back every few months and make changes inside and out?

I am if they tell me from the outset that the plan is for the house to be in constant development, and it's part of the license for freely using the house that they're allowed to do so.

I mean come on, it isn't even my house! It's their house. I haven't bought it; it's not even for sale. Why on earth would I build up expectations that they're not allowed to change their house?

You can expect whatever you like, but expectations are just thoughts in your head. They're not inherently correct, and they don't bind other people.

Well that's kind of a moot point, cause if we can't expect to have a stable and balanced game then they can't expect people to want to play it.

I didn't say you can't expect to have a stable and balanced game. Indeed, I explicitly said you can expect whatever you want. Expect away, just understand that that's just thoughts in your head.

If, when you talk about what we "can expect", you mean to talk about concepts that extend outside your head and control other people, then you are talking about what you are owed. So let's be clear and use those terms. You are not owed a "stable and balanced" game. Not according to your whatever criteria define your personal definitions of those terms, and not according to anyone else's criteria either.

As for "they can't expect people to want to play it" - sure, so what? Who says they were expecting that? Have they made any statements like "we expect people to want to play our game"? Because if not, this is a complete non sequitur. Developers don't attract players by expecting players to want to play their game. They attract players by building a game people want to play. Those people are not necessarily you, or me, or any other individual. Just somebody.

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

I'd love to see you try explaining Expectations to Tencent's shareholders about GGG's player retention numbers being volatile. They want to see stability as well.........

Why would you love that? Weird. I'm not here for Tencent's shareholders, are you? Both GGG and Tencent more broadly are big kids, they can take care of themselves.

"now you're getting it"

Nah man you don't get to build a narrative where I'm coming around to your way of thinking. I substantially disagree with you on specific points and the opinions you highlighted I've been posting for years. I'm not coming around to them, I'm a proponent of them and might be fair to say one of the loudest pulpit pounders for them around here.

You're dramatically missing -- or just purposefully being obtuse to -- the nuance I'm putting down, and whatever partial agreement we might have (and some you think is agreement when its not) is overshadowed by the strong disagreement.

Nerfs absolutely have to happen. You're simply niave if you think otherwise. Diablo 3 is all the proof I need. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a mixed or partial or naive understanding of game design in a live service game. This game in Creative mode (SC trade) is already characteristically being "won" within 3 days of league start (day 2-3 HH or MB types). Its a loot pinata clown fiesta ALREADY. They need to pull this back in a little, pump the brakes slowly over time and slow down this train wreck IMO. That means nerfing.

When a game is already scaled so far into the ludicrous and dumb that it now resembles a space ship shooter with RPG loot significantly more than an ARPG. when players in HARD CORE TRADE are deliberately juicing their maps to the point where Ben the best player in the game says calmly: "I'm probably dead when the server catches back up" deliberately shuttering his frame rates in HC for "juice"... this is incontrovertible proof that the game is distorted beyond anything that can be called healthy.

The game desperately needs nerfs. Because the power and scaling have distorted the game beyond recognition. Into something that even looks stupid and silly in HC mode.

When I object to destructive changes in standard I am talking about: deleting map progression every 3 months, deleting items en mass without 1 for 1 value (like sextant to scarabs), fundamentally destroying characters by changing the items they are wearing instead of changing only the new items that drop.

There are solutions to these problems but GGG doesn't care enough about 10-20% of the playerbase to bother.

I'm objecting to the bull in a china shop half assed way GGG makes many of these changes. NOT objecting to nerfs. Especially much needed nerfs.

Finally portraying a game who's meat and potatoes is constant new fresh things to do as "permanent beta" is intellectual dishonesty at best or simply lack of knowledge and understanding of the game type you chose to play. If you want a game that doesn't do that then you chose the wrong game and thats your problem not GGG's or the rest of the playerbase who chose this game BECAUSE IT HAS THESE THINGS YOU OBJECT TO AND DON'T WANT.

This game is billed as live service with big impactful new shit to do (including nerfs that are necessary to keep games level of insanity at least a little in check) frequently, I want that so I chose the right game. You don't want that and are portraying this as permanent beta. So you're playing the wrong game.