Here are my current thoughts: Herald of Agony is our biggest bottleneck. It's powerful, but it may be nerfed again in 3.8. It demands half our mana, our glove slot, jewel slot, limits the mods on our weapon, requires poison so no Avatar of Fire shenanigans, requires constant hits against bosses to maintain, requires a whopping 155-159 DEX (harder for Hybrid variant to get), and is the main reason for Projectile Weakness (for pierce) over other curses (which also requires 155 DEX).
I am starting to feel optimistic about Zombie survival: +2 to Minion Gems, 20% more Minion Life, 38% minion life on gem itself (which seems to act as a More multiplier back when I casually tested with Golems and Animated Guardian, but I could have made a mistake back then). They may in fact be a worthwhile full replacement for the Crawler. Not only would this free up another support for Zombies, but with Shaper or Elder mods they can easily become 7L+ on a 3L when we don't have to worry about mana reservation. There might not be enough of these 4-support mod weapons to go around, though, so that's one caveat. But what really has me hopeful is the Feeding Frenzy gem turning them aggressive. Alternatively, Meat Shield can make them tankier. If Zombies don't hold up, though, the Carrion Golem may be even better.
Great! :) Always hoped there was a way to remove the HoA from this build. I liked it in a dedicated Occulist shell but for mass minion I prefer MASS minion. I am playing around with a multi-minion phys build (skel, zombie, carrion) but a cold/light converted build would be great as well and fit this shell better.
With aggressive zombies and skeletons and faster projectile phantasms, would we need Flesh&Stone if we run a blind on hit jewel? On the Hybrid build likely yes, you seemed to run in front. For a "projectile driven" likely not?
With losing the "hits can't be evaded" on skeletons and running zombies, a Precision could make a lot of sense. Seeing as that is a flat reservation, any chance we can run that AND discipline? I've got some PoB'ing to do :)
@ everyone:
Rework of Raise Spectre has been revealed!
1. Minions have +30% to all Elemental Resistances - No change. This means monsters with 0 base resistances will still need another 55% elemental resistance. Frost Sentinels have 75% base cold resistance but 0 of all others.
2. Maximum 2 Raised Spectres - Buffed from "Can raise up to 1 Spectre at a time." This may indicate that Death Attunement will no longer grant an additional Spectre. If not, then we can have 3 Spectres before any items, lessening the necessity of these items for Spectre builds. Either way is fine for us.
3. 55% more Minion Movement Speed / Minion Movement Speed is Capped - No change. The cap is an absolute value, around the top speed of a Zombie. Its purpose is just to equalize slower monsters as Spectres.
4. Raised Spectres are Level 80 - Slight nerf for us, but it's still fantastic. What this means is you no longer have to worry about corpse level or monster level of the zone or re-raising low level Spectres. Now that their level explicitly comes from the gem, they will automatically scale up when you level the gem. You can grab your Spectre from any zone, even a level 1 Desecrate, and they'll still be ML80.
This significantly simplifies Spectres, and will make it so much easier on me when explaining to new players. Thanks, GGG!
Monsters that could not be Desecrated before are now viable candidates, too!
As for the downside, monsters only gain ~5% more damage per level and ~6.5% more life per level. For other gems, like Zombies, 1 gem level = 2 monster levels. So a L20 Zombie gem = ML70 Zombies, and a L21 gem = ML72 Zombies. But Spectres will only gain 1ML per 1L. This means level-stacking for Spectres is half as effective.
As for us, if we only have a L21 Spectre gem and +2 from Necromancer, our Spectres will be ML83. With the loss of Soul Weaver's 100% Spectre life, this is a bit worrying. On the other hand, replacing lost Spectres can now be done wherever and whenever. We'll have to wait to see the Passive Tree changes before we'll know how much minion life we'll be able to get.
5. Minions have 1109 additional Accuracy Rating - Buffed from 824 accuracy. Great for Kitava's Heralds, Knitted Horrors, etc.
6. ABSENT: Minions deal (-30-10)% more Damage Minions have (20-0)% less Life Minions have (20-0)% less Energy Shield
Another nerf for L20, but a huge buff to early leveling if these are truly gone.
I'd have liked another 10% elemental resistances, just to put them at the same level as other minions. Overall, though, great mechanical changes, if not for the damage and life nerfs. L80 and -10% more = 75% of previous damage (86.6% if L83), not including the loss of Soul Weaver. Monster level for Spectres only going up by 1 per gem level is a deceptive siren song, which is disappointing. The extra Spectre may help make up for all this if Death Attunement wasn't nerfed.
Another Ascendancy besides Necro?
Makes little sense if GGG goes that way...
Thanks for your thoughts on removing the HoAg. Looks reasonable to me.
I do want to try out the buffed zombies and skeletons. Having an army of them is awesome.
The Big DPS spectre build I have been trying, uses Armageddon brand and it works out well (other uses though).
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I do want to try out the buffed zombies and skeletons. Having an army of them is awesome.
Yep! That's exactly the fantasy of this Mass Summoner build. Right now, I'm really tickled by the idea of swapping Ball Lighting out for Raging Spirits after seeing that they can actually reach half a million DPS with little investment. I'll have to put it to the test first, since it'll come at the expense of limiting our application of EE and curse.
While it's much harder to gear (due to lack of resists) I wonder how Aukuna's Will plus Plague Bringer and Corpse Pact would do.
The Zombies will have a huge amount of life (+150%), 10% more damage done and 10% reduced damage done aura around each Zombie (good coverage) plus would each Zombie summoned with Aukuna's Will count for the purpose of auto shock and auto chill aura? Would the aura's stack?
Basically pathing to Unnatural strength and Corpse Pact.
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While it's much harder to gear (due to lack of resists) I wonder how Aukuna's Will plus Plague Bringer and Corpse Pact would do.
Our build doesn't expect to have resistances on our gloves from the start. Either way, the 30% resistances from Bone Barrier will really help.
My biggest hesitation with those gloves is that enemies with corpse skills can turn your Zombies against you. Their massive life pool would be great up until they're detonated by a Strongbox near you.
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10% more damage done and 10% reduced damage done aura around each Zombie (good coverage)
I imagine they implemented it as a hidden aura on your character that detects a corpse and then applies the debuff to monsters within aura range. That'd take considerably less calculations than having an aura check around virtually every corpse in the map. In other words, it'll probably only work within 80 units of your character.
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Would the [shock/chill] aura's stack?
No, they would not stack. Only the strongest shock and chill takes effect.
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plus would each Zombie summoned with Aukuna's Will count for the purpose of auto shock and auto chill aura?
They should if you've raised them Recently, meaning you only have 4 seconds to make it count.
Skitterbots offer the same Shock and Chill bonus as the 4pt Corpse Pact ascendancy. Depending on their reservation cost and AI behavior without mines (follows like Holy Relic?), these might make a better replacement for that node when using Cyclone.
They do count as minions. They're invulnerable and deal no damage themselves, so many minion modifiers will have no effect. Minion area of effect, minion speed and a couple of specific unique modifiers would apply. They're an instant cast reservation effect, so your cast speed has no effect on spawning them. (Source)
Last edited by Hercanic on Aug 31, 2019, 1:57:54 PM
Yep! That's exactly the fantasy of this Mass Summoner build. Right now, I'm really tickled by the idea of swapping Ball Lighting out for Raging Spirits after seeing that they can actually reach half a million DPS with little investment. I'll have to put it to the test first, since it'll come at the expense of limiting our application of EE and curse.
If you do this setup i likely want to see it, I really enjoy the mass summoner gameplay, more invoc, more pleasure !
But i guess if you do that you take off the crawler for the new summon no ? because without ball lightning, no poison stack.
Here are my current thoughts: Herald of Agony is our biggest bottleneck. It's powerful, but it may be nerfed again in 3.8. It demands half our mana, our glove slot, jewel slot, limits the mods on our weapon, requires poison so no Avatar of Fire shenanigans, requires constant hits against bosses to maintain, requires a whopping 155-159 DEX (harder for Hybrid variant to get), and is the main reason for Projectile Weakness (for pierce) over other curses (which also requires 155 DEX).
I am starting to feel optimistic about Zombie survival: +2 to Minion Gems, 20% more Minion Life, 38% minion life on gem itself (which seems to act as a More multiplier back when I casually tested with Golems and Animated Guardian, but I could have made a mistake back then). They may in fact be a worthwhile full replacement for the Crawler. Not only would this free up another support for Zombies, but with Shaper or Elder mods they can easily become 7L+ on a 3L when we don't have to worry about mana reservation. There might not be enough of these 4-support mod weapons to go around, though, so that's one caveat. But what really has me hopeful is the Feeding Frenzy gem turning them aggressive. Alternatively, Meat Shield can make them tankier. If Zombies don't hold up, though, the Carrion Golem may be even better.
Great! :) Always hoped there was a way to remove the HoA from this build. I liked it in a dedicated Occulist shell but for mass minion I prefer MASS minion. I am playing around with a multi-minion phys build (skel, zombie, carrion) but a cold/light converted build would be great as well and fit this shell better.
With aggressive zombies and skeletons and faster projectile phantasms, would we need Flesh&Stone if we run a blind on hit jewel? On the Hybrid build likely yes, you seemed to run in front. For a "projectile driven" likely not?
With losing the "hits can't be evaded" on skeletons and running zombies, a Precision could make a lot of sense. Seeing as that is a flat reservation, any chance we can run that AND discipline? I've got some PoB'ing to do :)
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With aggressive zombies and skeletons and faster projectile phantasms, would we need Flesh&Stone if we run a blind on hit jewel?
Minion Blind jewel is on Attack, so Phantasms who cast a Spell do not Blind. The chance is too low to be reliable while clearing, but perfectly fine against big bosses with Zombies and Skeletons whaling away (and maybe SRS too depending on how my tests go).
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On the Hybrid build likely yes, you seemed to run in front. For a "projectile driven" likely not?
Spirit Offering actually does really well protecting us while clearing. Its two weaknesses are Big Hits and Rapid Hits that surpass the 0.25 cooldown of CWDT. Cyclone gives us phasing so we can control how surrounded we are, negating most cases of Rapid Hits (block and dodge help here, too). That leaves Big Hits, which aside from a pack of dangerous rares with auras stacked like Legion Templar, is mainly a concern against bosses, and our Minion Blind jewel takes care of bosses.
Flesh and Stone is very strong protection, a better Acrobatics without any penalties to block or ES. Even after the above considerations, it's still very worthwhile. You just have to weigh it against your other options.
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With losing the "hits can't be evaded" on skeletons and running zombies, a Precision could make a lot of sense. Seeing as that is a flat reservation, any chance we can run that AND discipline?
L24 Skeletons will have an 84% chance to hit (1248 accuracy rating). With +2 from Unnatural Strength, they'll have an 87% chance (1457). This is assuming nothing else changes with minion level scaling or the passive tree. A L21 Precision (195 mana reserved) will push L24 Skeletons to 3.1k accuracy, which is worth 15% more damage. L26 Skeletons will only need a L17 Precision (159 mana reserved) to reach 3k.
Discipline leaves 216 mana unreserved. So you'd need some reduction to do both and still cast Skeletons, plus another socket (both ring slots, for example). If you put Precision on Generosity (move Flame Dash to ring socket), you could use an even lower level.
Yep! That's exactly the fantasy of this Mass Summoner build. Right now, I'm really tickled by the idea of swapping Ball Lighting out for Raging Spirits after seeing that they can actually reach half a million DPS with little investment. I'll have to put it to the test first, since it'll come at the expense of limiting our application of EE and curse.
@Hercanic
If you do this setup i likely want to see it, I really enjoy the mass summoner gameplay, more invoc, more pleasure !
But i guess if you do that you take off the crawler for the new summon no ? because without ball lightning, no poison stack.
"
But i guess if you do that you take off the crawler for the new summon no ? because without ball lightning, no poison stack.
Yep, that's the idea. 5-7L Zombies and 5L SRS would make up the difference of Herald of Agony, freeing our mana for F&S, Discipline w/ Watcher's Eye, Precision, or Skitterbots (taking the socket(s) of Holy Relic and/or curse).
Last edited by Hercanic on Aug 31, 2019, 8:56:56 PM
Here are my current thoughts: Herald of Agony is our biggest bottleneck...
Since we don't need to worry about maintaining Virulence, the only reason to use a rapid-hitting spell is for LGoSH, ES on Hit (Watcher's Eye), and triggering Frenzy Charge generation.
...or just straight up use only Cyclone with a bit of added Fire or Lightning damage and Fortify + 54 Life Gain on Hit Support + Area Support in gloves with Faster Attacks and Additional Accuracy. That'd be around 800-1000 life per second per target.
Or trade LGoH Support for Raging Spirits+CwC, because MORE MINIONS, who would gain benefit from Fortify, Faster Attacks, Additional Accuracy, would last 8.5sec and cast every 0.35 sec to reach 20 spirits within 7 seconds, and plugging all that in gives me 23k Shaper DPS per minion or 460k for all 20.
In short:
1. Use Hybrid Build. (ES passive tree, ES gear, no Acrobatics, Mistress of Sacrifice w/ 4L CWDT + Unearth + GMP + Spirit Offering, Corrupted Soul keystone if possible).
2. Drop HoA. Will no longer need to poison. Frees up mana for other auras.
3. Fully support Zombies with as many mods on weapon. If not tanky enough after rework, try Carrion Golems.
4. Drop Ball Lightning. Just use Cyclone with added Lightning Damage from jewel or ring craft to inflict EE on difficult targets and generate Frenzy Charges.
5. Drop Poison/Chance to Bleed on gloves. Use gloves with Faster Attacks and Additional Accuracy instead, giving more Life on Hit from claw. Or, even better, use Elder boots with Fortify. This will not only free up your glove slot to be whatever you want (e.g. Grip of the Council), but it also frees up a socket to be whatever you want. Precision aura can take care of the accuracy problem, after all.
6. Use Raging Spirits in Cyclone + CwC + Fortify setup, with both skills benefiting from all supports. They can deal ~500k DPS and will help mop up while clearing. If in Elder boots with Fortify, you can have the free socket be Minion Damage, Minion Speed, Melee Splash, Combustion, Infernal Legion, Infused Channeling, Life Gain on Hit, or whatever you want. Elder boots can also have Increased Duration Support as an affix, too.
7. Drop Holy Relic and/or curse ring for an aura with newly freed mana: Flesh and Stone (defense), Precision (~15% more damage for Skeletons/Zombies/Carrion Golems), Discipline (defense, 30 ES on Hit with Watcher's Eye), or Skitterbots (20% more damage from Shock aura, 10% chill aura). You can still curse with an Unset Ring that has Vulnerability or Frostbite on Hit.
Last edited by Hercanic on Sep 1, 2019, 6:53:19 PM
I skipped the last few seasons but I loved this build last time...and now seems like a good time to come back to PoE! It seems like it's even more SSF friendly than before?
From latest Baelcast with 2 devs, they stated that SRS will namelock target the latest monster you moused over. Could be great for bossing. Unsure about the effects when mapping and cycloning. I am rarely mousing over monsters in those cases. Will be interesting to try out.
A readable source: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/cy9xlp/all_info_from_the_latest_baeclast_in_text_form/
I skipped the last few seasons but I loved this build last time...and now seems like a good time to come back to PoE! It seems like it's even more SSF friendly than before?
I'd say so, yes. The Hybrid variant doesn't even use Belly of the Beast. I'm also experimenting with further tweaks to Hybrid that doesn't use Mark of Submission and has all jewelry slots completely open (and thus can use three +1 minimum endurance charge craft, which will stack phys reduction with Bone Barrier and Pantheon).
Fundamentally, this build does not require any Uniques to function, like Soulwrest, Baron, or Golem builds. The Shaper and Elder items just help with adding more supports, and thus power, to our minions, but can function without them.
With the Necromancer rework, minions like Phantasms, who didn't get much out of the original ascendancy, will now benefit from things like +2 levels.
Based on revealed changes, how this build compares to spectre builds?
In a Spectre build, you'll get a ton of damage on four "turrets". This build has less damage per "turret", but reaches a similar amount of total damage across dozens of "turrets". In effect, this build can cover more area and doesn't have to worry where any particular "turret" is focusing.
Under Pros & Cons, weakness #1, 2, and 5 are the main strikes against this build compared to a pure Spectre build.
I anticipate Strike minions, namely Zombies and Skeletons, being especially potent against stacked up Blight lanes. This is because a Strike will hit everything it passes through, and Melee Splash will trigger on every target. So 10 bunched up Blight monsters (who will have 2.5-10x more life than normal) could potentially all splash 59% damage onto their neighbors, resulting in the entire group taking (9 * 59% =) 531% more damage.
From latest Baelcast with 2 devs, they stated that SRS will namelock target the latest monster you moused over. Could be great for bossing. Unsure about the effects when mapping and cycloning. I am rarely mousing over monsters in those cases. Will be interesting to try out.
My intention with incorporating SRS is to have a mop-up crew. Like Skeletons, Spirits don't follow, so they're good for picking off stragglers or covering other directions. Great in, for example, certain Incursion layouts with many rooms where you can't linger for long.
With Cyclone, your mouse is steering, so I don't think this change will have much bearing on us. We just plop Skeletons next to anything we want to focus down.
Last edited by Hercanic on Sep 2, 2019, 11:46:29 AM
