[3.2] 15c BF BoR Champion/Zerker- Shaper/Guardians/Red Elder & Guardians/Uber Lab/Atziri

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corosou wrote:

Hi, I don't wanna call out anyone here... I saw this guide come up and let it go, but I suspect this build is derivative work based on my ScourgeFlurry BoR variant.

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Baldersh wrote:

I can maybe see why you would think the build was derivative work, but in that same sense your build would be considered derivative work of any BoR instant-leech build that came before yours.

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I have put together a bunch of budget builds so far and I haven't actually even looked any build up since the 2.1 Ice Shot Chin Sol Trapper. That started my own derivative version which I stated clearly as I posted about that build. I haven't and won't ever try to take credit for somebody else's work.

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Outside of the usage of one of, if not the most used item in the entire game for budget builds - The Bringer of Rain, and the only possible source of instant-leech in the game anymore - Bloodseeker, our builds diverge completely.

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Looking at your guide now, before 3.1 you went with dual claws. I started in 3.1 with stat-sticks and went into shaper stat-sticks when I posted the build just 10 days into the league. I'm not sure when you updated your build to include shaper stat sticks because again, I have never looked at your build before you posted in my thread with accusations, but I released the build 10 days into the league with the shaper stat-stick method included from the get-go. Our trees as you say are entirely different with essentially no similarities except for the marauder starting nodes. So that leaves us with... 2 similarities? Unless you are also talking about the Berserker in which case your work is derivative of every Berserker that came before you.

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With respect to the weaker parts of this build, I do not and did not ever claim that this build is the most optimized and min-maxed build possible. Frankly I couldn't give a damn about min-maxing it while disregarding cost. I don't personally find that fun. All of the builds I've ever made have been on extremely tight budgets for people who don't ever get tens of exalts, and they do the best they can within those realistic budgets.

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I don't claim in my title that the build is budget and then showcase tens of exalts worth of gear in my GIFs. I don't then berate the people who respond to my guide for questioning the budget aspect of the build and not understanding why they aren't doing as much damage as said GIFs. I don't jump into 15c budget build guides, throw around accusations and promote my tens of exalts build as clearly superior. I especially don't do that when other than a claw which is the only option for instant leech, and a helmet that is used in effectively every budget melee build ever made, said build is dissimilar to my build.

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What I do claim as is clear from the title, is that for 15c within a week of the league, this build can clear the entire game. And what I do believe, is that for 15c within a week of the league, your build likely cannot. I'm not gonna go into your thread and tell that to the people there though because who would do something like that? That would just be rude.

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akavangop wrote:

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corosou wrote:

Hi, I don't wanna call out anyone here... I saw this guide come up and let it go, but I suspect this build is derivative work based on my ScourgeFlurry BoR variant.

With all respect to corosou (and he deserves it for profound build work), this is not looking good to blame somebody for stealing a build, PR your own build with shiny gifs, and give 0 evidence the build was copied in any way.
Won't go into details, Baldersh listed them already.

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corosou wrote:

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Baldersh wrote:

I can maybe see why you would think the build was derivative work, but in that same sense your build would be considered derivative work of any BoR instant-leech build that came before yours.

That's cool, so you DO see where I am coming from. I DID say "suspect", and to me there's a very clear distinction between making a clear accusation statement and me suspecting something and voicing my opinion. Please (without sarcasm) do link me to any BoR instant-leech build that came before that you think I may have based mine on. I am curious to see what you mean.

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I have put together a bunch of budget builds so far and I haven't actually even looked any build up since the 2.1 Ice Shot Chin Sol Trapper. That started my own derivative version which I stated clearly as I posted about that build. I haven't and won't ever try to take credit for somebody else's work.

Again, suspicion is not an accusation.

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Outside of the usage of one of, if not the most used item in the entire game for budget builds - The Bringer of Rain, and the only possible source of instant-leech in the game anymore - Bloodseeker, our builds diverge completely.

That's fine. My suspicion is just based on 3.0 and people realizing you could put the build together for about 1c per item, then seeing someone in 3.1 take the core concept that makes that possible and creating a guide with the same skill, just switching the tree around. In my thinking, it's not as though there are 50 BF marauder builds out there, there's a handful, so I found it hard to believe that you didn't see my BF build and the BoR option, but if you say you didn't, that's cool and I was wrong in suspecting anything.

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Looking at your guide now, before 3.1 you went with dual claws. I started in 3.1 with stat-sticks and went into shaper stat-sticks when I posted the build just 10 days into the league. I'm not sure when you updated your build to include shaper stat sticks because again, I have never looked at your build before you posted in my thread with accusations, but I released the build 10 days into the league with the shaper stat-stick method included from the get-go. Our trees as you say are entirely different with essentially no similarities except for the marauder starting nodes. So that leaves us with... 2 similarities? Unless you are also talking about the Berserker in which case your work is derivative of every Berserker that came before you.

I didn't update the 3.1 guide right away because way too many people were finding the build and the budget was climbing. So, I opted to leave the build tagged 3.0 for a while and not make any changes as to not ruin the market for those looking to put the build together again with relatively the same budget. My work is also influenced by other's and I have mentioned that throughout my thread many times, if you choose to look. And I always gave credit to where I got ideas from.

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With respect to the weaker parts of this build, I do not and did not ever claim that this build is the most optimized and min-maxed build possible. Frankly I couldn't give a damn about min-maxing it while disregarding cost. I don't personally find that fun. All of the builds I've ever made have been on extremely tight budgets for people who don't ever get tens of exalts, and they do the best they can within those realistic budgets.

That's fine, I agree with this. It's one of the reason I didn't immediately update my thread for 3.1.

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I don't claim in my title that the build is budget and then showcase tens of exalts worth of gear in my GIFs. I don't then berate the people who respond to my guide for questioning the budget aspect of the build and not understanding why they aren't doing as much damage as said GIFs. I don't jump into 15c budget build guides, throw around accusations and promote my tens of exalts build as clearly superior. I especially don't do that when other than a claw which is the only option for instant leech, and a helmet that is used in effectively every budget melee build ever made, said build is dissimilar to my build.

I don't have to claim anything because the fact is that the budget version was there for a long time. And yes, I am mean and harsh and don't like to hand-hold lazy players who want you to spoon feed them through every single step of the process. As you can see I'm not hiding away after what I said, and a conversation about me "suspecting" something is not the end of the world to me.

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What I do claim as is clear from the title, is that for 15c within a week of the league, this build can clear the entire game. And what I do believe, is that for 15c within a week of the league, your build likely cannot. I'm not gonna go into your thread and tell that to the people there though because who would do something like that? That would just be rude.

Thankfully there's a lot of historical evidence in my thread from other people who posted about the low budget of the build. Should you wish to, feel free to read comments from people talking about how cheap the build was and how they couldn't find what to spend money on. I just chose to keep that on the DL.

Again, the reason for my suspicion was me not updating the 3.0 thread for 3.1 and then seeing a very similar build seemingly take advantage of that situation and the appeal of an extreme budget build that can do it all and posting a guide about it as though the concept was their own. But I do concede it's entirely within the realm of possibility that you converged on the same idea without any outside influence. I also didn't say anything at the beginning of the league, I just let it go and only commented towards the end of the league, when there would be very little influence from my comments, just in case I was wrong in my suspicion.

Either way, I said my peace and now I've replied to your commentary on my commentary, the world keeps turning and I don't think I have anything left to say about it.

Best of luck with your guides!

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Kortiah wrote:

I'm not 100% sold on Champion. Do you really think Adrenaline will have a high uptime ? That'd mean the more gear this character will get, the less you'll proc Adrenaline, that's kinda counter-productive ...

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xenochaos1 wrote:

is there a more "tanky" "safe" version of this build ?! (less DPS)

Also is this build good for early uber lab farming ?!?! or I should go with a warchief totem build for uber lab farming to fund this char?!

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Baldersh wrote:

What you did is the functional equivalent of saying "No offence, but..." followed by something offensive. Saying the word suspect doesn't negate the fact that the entire post WAS in practice an accusation. If you truly suspected and just wanted to be sure, a simple PM would suffice.

Again, I have not used any builds since the 2.1 trapper, so I don't have specific links and I'm not going to utilize the forum's sub-par search engine to attempt to find all possible builds from 2.0 onwards (when VP became a solid choice) as that's pretty much my day or multiple gone. In any case though, what I meant was that if my build is a derivation of a build I've never seen, then yours can equivalently be considered as such from any similar build to yours, regardless of whether you know it exists or not. And given how long BoR and instant-leech have been in the game, there's slim to no chance that there were never builds that used the same idea before. That being said I don't think you used them as a base anyways, I entirely believe that you came up with the idea yourself given that BoR is known as a solid budget item and Bloodseeker is the only source of insta-leech post VP. You literally currently have no other option if you want to make a build similar to yours or mine.

You're right that I forgot to mention BF. There's a third similarity. I've used claw based BF since I made a (admittedly not the best) BF poison raider back in 2.4. If I'm making a 15c budget build that is clearing all the bosses in the game, I'm going to use a top tier boss-killer or the build won't do what I set out to. Again, nothing to do with your build but instead to do with the state of balance within the game's skills.

I'll take your word for it that people are happy with the budget of your build, there's no way anybody is going to search through that many pages for specifics. If your build wasn't great, it wouldn't have that many responses. Your guide itself is incredibly well done and admittedly my actual written guide is pretty sub-par. Your build also seems extremely potent as you put more currency into it.

That being said, they serve entirely different purposes and any build on the left side of the tree cannot compete with builds on the right side of the tree in damage within a small budget. As much as you keep repeating the word "suspicion", your post speaks for itself. It was an accusation plain and simple, and I don't take kindly to that. The builds are different in most ways and similar in only a few which are essentially the usage of "Unique" items that are the only items in their class that serve their specific purpose.

Good luck in 3.2, wish you all the best.