Lightning Golem Crescendo ♫ All Content / HC Focused / Not Casual-Friendly

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tomatopotato wrote:

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Warranx wrote:

Hmm I've been thinking about it, and even though I went with elementalist this time around, if I had to rebuild this build again I think I would roll with a Ascendant- elementalist and probably guardian. You get the same passive tree except you have easy access to another 3 point jewel and 5 passive points. And more stats..and still 6 golems.

Hmm... I'm not convinced regarding Ascendant yet, but I don't have enough info/experience to give a definitive answer. I did have somebody message me the other day saying they tried playing golems as Ascendant on HHC (with Flame and then Lightning). That person told me after doing a few Normal Atziris at around level 82(?) he/she somewhat regretted not going Elementalist.

I mean if people can run necromancer for minion damage and be okay, then scion "should" be just as viable... I'm also playing in HHC. I realize that the immune to elemental damage would be big against certain bosses...and I guess reflect, but the massive regeneration should make those situations pretty rare and all you'd have to do is recast any ways (the spell echo on golems is nice here).

I've been playing around with Victario's Charity, and the charges only generate fast enough to be viable if you take Aegis for the 1 point. I'm not sure that it would actually be better than just having that additional golem though. Did some maths and with how much minion damage we actually get from tree outside of Harmonies an additional unique golem is roughly 40-45% More damage while charity gives 45% cast speed + 12% More damage + 15% movement from the 3 frenzy charges that are always up (due to being generated on hit) I didn't even factor power charges in (because they're on kill). So just numbers wise it seems viable and maybe up to personal preference.

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bad0men wrote:

Would innervate not be a good gemslot for this? I would assume controlled destruction and innervate would result in higher damage than inc duration and elemental focus, just due to being able to shock? As well as the innervate boost also giving your minions better clearspeed?

Took another look at the gem just now and I realized Innervation (and the beefy flat lightning damage bonus) doesn't take effect unless your golems kill a shocked enemy. This means you will need to rely on adds to proc it against bosses, which in turn means that it will be unreliable vs. quite a few of the tougher fights. A few of the Guardians do spawn enough adds to make it "useful", but likely not indispensable.

I basically look at it this way:
1) It's probably not going to be one of your best 6 links vs T16+
2) With shock, it probably outshines Added Lightning for lower tier content.
3) T15 and below doesn't matter, because whatever links you use (within the bounds of common sense) should blow through everything anyway. So I'm not that excited about it anymore.

TL;DR
It seems more like a fun mapping/leveling toy. Since I'm somewhat lazy and don't want to bother with re-coloring, I would swap Increased Duration with Empower and Elemental Focus with Innervation when not bossing. I'll still try and test it when I get the time (apologies for the late reply).

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Warranx wrote:

I mean if people can run necromancer for minion damage and be okay, then scion "should" be just as viable... I'm also playing in HHC. I realize that the immune to elemental damage would be big against certain bosses...and I guess reflect, but the massive regeneration should make those situations pretty rare and all you'd have to do is recast any ways (the spell echo on golems is nice here).

That's a good point. I don't mean to say that Ascendant would be terrible. I'm just not sure the 5 points you'd save would be worth it. The obvious plan would be to re-invest those points back into minion life/regen/resists to make up for the loss of golem elemental immunity or resign yourself to occasional recasting. On a Spell Echo-linked minion, I think this can actually be potentially dangerous if you get stuck casting it in a bad spot (rare situations are often the ones that deserve the most attention in HC). Overall, seems like a net gain of 1 more Harmony here. Not sure that's worth giving up the immunity for, especially if you already have enough damage.

Also, this particular build reserves almost all mana to run 3 auras. You'd have to forego Wrath to give yourself re-summoning flexibility or be willing to turn off auras and regen mana before casting (also potentially dangerous). It might just be my particular playstyle, but I feel like the set-and-forget nature of immunity provides just as much or more survivability in HC than numbers and defensive gimmicks. The less focused you are on clicking, the more you can focus on dodging, something that synergizes well with builds that generate mainly passive offense.

Now, I don't want to give people inaccurate/unfounded advice without properly seeing/testing for myself, but overall I'm guessing Ascendant is a notch or two below ELE/NEC.

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I've been playing around with Victario's Charity, and the charges only generate fast enough to be viable if you take Aegis for the 1 point. I'm not sure that it would actually be better than just having that additional golem though. Did some maths and with how much minion damage we actually get from tree outside of Harmonies an additional unique golem is roughly 40-45% More damage while charity gives 45% cast speed + 12% More damage + 15% movement from the 3 frenzy charges that are always up (due to being generated on hit) I didn't even factor power charges in (because they're on kill). So just numbers wise it seems viable and maybe up to personal preference.

I was initially unimpressed with Victario's. The Flame Golem build on this forum that utilizes it seems to kill slower than all of the traditional flame golem setups I've seen. So I just assumed the shield's purpose was more to protect the golems than to make up for the loss of a Clayshaper.

That said, I'm interested in seeing how you came to the 40-45% figure. Also, Orb of Sparks scales very well with cast speed, moreso than Magma Ball imo. At +45%, I could see it potentially exceeding the extra golem from Clayshaper, even without the other bonuses. Will have to try it out. Thanks for bringing it up.

Sigh, more testing when I haven't had much time to even just play :P

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tomatopotato wrote:

I was initially unimpressed with Victario's. The Flame Golem build on this forum that utilizes it seems to kill slower than all of the traditional flame golem setups I've seen. So I just assumed the shield's purpose was more to protect the golems than to make up for the loss of a Clayshaper.

That said, I'm interested in seeing how you came to the 40-45% figure. Also, Orb of Storms scales very well with cast speed, moreso than Magma Ball imo. At +45%, I could see it potentially exceeding the extra golem from Clayshaper, even without the other bonuses. Will have to try it out. Thanks for bringing it up.

Sigh, more testing when I haven't had much time to even just play :P

I'm actually raising a scion now and i'll let you know if I have to end up re-casting a bunch (I don't expect it unless you're running T16 type bosses).

The 40-45% figure is roughly using the same type of math as your why no 6 flame golem argument, 55% minion from tree (not including harmonies) 140% from 7 Harmonies, then using assumption that 6th golem would be used for another unique type to buff Harmony you get:

1 + .55 + 2.8 = 4.35
1.4 increase from another golem would be only 1.4/4.35 ~ 32% more damage.

If you figure 8 Harmonies then it becomes:
1 + .55 + 3.2 = 4.75
1.6 / 4.75 ~ 33% more damage.

So my bad, my original math didn't include the initial 100% just normal damage:

.55 + 2.8 = 3.35
1.4 / 3.35 ~ 42%

This makes the shield even more desirable because the shield opens up shield charge as a possible movement skill which also opens up fortify if you want it.

My current setup is something like this:

6 link Chest - Flame/Lightning Golem
4 link OOS - CoH - Flamability/conductivity - Enfeeble (I like it more than temp chains)
3 Link - 2 Golems + Culling (Or whatever supports you want, maybe minion health or damage or whatever)
4 link CwDT - Phase Run - Immortal Call - Increased Duration / Convocation (up to preference)
4 link Auras - Dicipline + auras of choice (I personally don't really like Arctic Armour cause I'm moving all the time so not getting the damage reductions, but could revisit because shield charge would allow the chilling ground to go through the boss) + Enlighten/ Convocation depending on passives

3 link - Movement skill (was using lightning warp - decreased duration - swift affliction, but thinking about shield charge - faster attacks - fortify with the shield).

Yeah im running a stone golem build and path of building is reflecting a ~50k dps loss per golem running ascendant versus necro so with the xtra golem its basically breaking even damage wise but im losing chaos resist some ele resist and self offerings.

elementalist is kinda irrelavent for stone golems because they're aren't elemental golems so they dont get a self buff. plus strength buffs from the baron and running 9 harmonys they have so much hp and regen they are basically immortal anyway.

downside thou is you definitely have more issues gearing....have to invest in minion speed and strength with melee golems.

no kill data or anything yet still leveling the build but the stats are definitely there.

im getting:

basic defenses
4.9k hp(thats with the assumption of t4-3 life rolls)
cast when damaged taken enfeeble + immortal call + bone offering
leap slam fortify.

with 1 anima 1 might 9 eminence/harmony

supports: empower-brutality-ruthless-melee physical-minion dmg
with haste, vaal haste, punishment, and rallying cry buff

each golem:(w/ assumption of t4-3 strength rolls and minion life gear crafted)

with 9 eminence

130k dps auto attacks
200k dps slams 6s cooldown
41k dps with roll(looks absolutely hilarious with IAS and movespeed increases)
65k life with 1976.2 golem life regen
~665ish personal regen(thats with the assumption of t4-3 life on gear)

with 9 harmony

115k auto attacks
160k slam 2.76s cooldown
33k dps roll
65k life with 13.3k golem life regen
~330ish personal regen

ill probably end up running a hybrid of the 2 though.


heres a link to for my PoB: https://pastebin.com/aLrrrw2H

double post

Does the Pain Attunement keystone affect the golem's damage?

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Warranx wrote:

I'm actually raising a scion now and i'll let you know if I have to end up re-casting a bunch (I don't expect it unless you're running T16 type bosses).

The 40-45% figure is roughly using the same type of math as your why no 6 flame golem argument, 55% minion from tree (not including harmonies) 140% from 7 Harmonies, then using assumption that 6th golem would be used for another unique type to buff Harmony you get:

1 + .55 + 2.8 = 4.35
1.4 increase from another golem would be only 1.4/4.35 ~ 32% more damage.

Ah, okay. I see what happened here. We can't look at only the difference in Harmony bonus to find the difference in overall damage. We need to factor the overall number of golems into it. So it's better to look at the "overall damage factor" (for lack of a better phrase; link for those interested)...

for 4.1.1:

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D=4G
G=(1.00 + 4.20 + 0.55)B
D=4x5.75B >>> 23.00

vs. 4.1.shield:

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D=4G
G=(1.00 + 2.80 + 0.55)B
D=4x4.35B >>> 17.4 (~24% drop in overall damage from your main golems)

or 3.1.1.shield:

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D=3G
G=(1.00 + 4.20 + 0.55)B
D=3x5.75B >>> 17.25 (25% drop in overall damage from your main golems)

This sounds like even less of a difference compared to the 42% figure you arrived at (strengthening your point even further), but keep in mind that this is overall damage after every node/link/multiplier has been factored in. 45% increased cast speed doesn't mean a 45% boost in damage. The build already gets 20% Increased cast speed from the tree, around 70% More cast speed from Spell Echo. So it's not a 1-to-1 thing. It's still sounds pretty huge though, which is why Victario's is worth exploring, rather than making the mistake I made of dismissing it off-hand.

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My current setup is something like this:

6 link Chest - Flame/Lightning Golem
4 link OOS - CoH - Flamability/conductivity - Enfeeble (I like it more than temp chains)
3 Link - 2 Golems + Culling (Or whatever supports you want, maybe minion health or damage or whatever)
4 link CwDT - Phase Run - Immortal Call - Increased Duration / Convocation (up to preference)
4 link Auras - Dicipline + auras of choice (I personally don't really like Arctic Armour cause I'm moving all the time so not getting the damage reductions, but could revisit because shield charge would allow the chilling ground to go through the boss) + Enlighten/ Convocation depending on passives

Good point regarding AA. Have you considered taking MoM to have that extra little buffer, since the build uses very little mana anyway?

As for Shield Charge, I'm a little leery/paranoid about getting tripped up on a pebble at a critical moment. More power to you if that's how you roll :)

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Gymrat313 wrote:

Does the Pain Attunement keystone affect the golem's damage?

No. As a general rule of thumb, if a node doesn't specifically say "minion" it only affects you, which is why it's a pain in the butt for whoever at GGG oversees syntax. They need to somehow describe all those different mods and balance specificity with ease of understanding... not an enviable task.

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Pemmin wrote:

41k dps with roll(looks absolutely hilarious with IAS and movespeed increases)

Yes! This lol. Looking forward to hearing how your stoners go. I haven't played with them since the new physical support gems came out.

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tomatopotato wrote:

Good point regarding AA. Have you considered taking MoM to have that extra little buffer, since the build uses very little mana anyway?

As for Shield Charge, I'm a little leery/paranoid about getting tripped up on a pebble at a critical moment. More power to you if that's how you roll :)

It IS how I roll :). I also have unlinked lightning warp when I need to jump over stuff and especially useful for moving around in Lab.

I'm trying out MoM right now, it does mean I can no longer run Haste (50% is big deal for MoM), but it still leaves me with more mana than 30% of my hp if I only run Discipline. Therefore, I've decided to go a little under the 30% mark, and run Arctic Armour again. One thing to note is that the MoM only protects your Life, it doesn't protect your ES so taking hits won't reduce mana unless those hits eat into your life. This is nice to be honest since we don't invest heavily into mana, but have additional effective hp for chaos damage. So my aura setup is now Discipline + Arctic Armour + Vaal Discipline + Convocation.

Other links are:
CwDT - Immortal Call - Phase Run - Convocation (I like having this convocation as it speeds up clear speed)
Shield Charge - Faster Attacks - Fortify
Decoy Totem - Stone Golem - Lightning Warp (I feel like stone's tanky enough, but if needed can link minion health here instead or Culling)
Orb of Storms - Curse on Hit - Enfeeble - Flamability
currently 5 link Golem setup.

I currently have 2.7k hp, 5.2k ES, and around 600 unreserved mana at level 70. My resists are all over capped including Chaos.

Normal mapping consist of me shield charging through the map while casting orb of storms for enfeeble mostly cause EE gets triggered from my shield charging as well. When I get to harder mobs i also lay down decoy totem....and that's it.

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Warranx wrote:

It IS how I roll :). I also have unlinked lightning warp when I need to jump over stuff and especially useful for moving around in Lab.

I imagine you'll have an even easier time on Chimera with your Shield Charge.

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I'm trying out MoM right now, it does mean I can no longer run Haste (50% is big deal for MoM), but it still leaves me with more mana than 30% of my hp if I only run Discipline. Therefore, I've decided to go a little under the 30% mark, and run Arctic Armour again. One thing to note is that the MoM only protects your Life, it doesn't protect your ES so taking hits won't reduce mana unless those hits eat into your life. This is nice to be honest since we don't invest heavily into mana, but have additional effective hp for chaos damage. So my aura setup is now Discipline + Arctic Armour + Vaal Discipline + Convocation.

Yeah, I'm probably going to do the same and run with Esh's Visage until I can afford Shav's and go back to dual Clays. Finally had some time to play this week. Thanks to the ES nerf, I find myself speccing into way more life in HHC and reaching for as much EHP as possible while transitioning from junk leveling gear. I'm actually playing legit hybrid right now, which I find super icky :P

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Other links are:
CwDT - Immortal Call - Phase Run - Convocation (I like having this convocation as it speeds up clear speed)
Shield Charge - Faster Attacks - Fortify
Decoy Totem - Stone Golem - Lightning Warp (I feel like stone's tanky enough, but if needed can link minion health here instead or Culling)
Orb of Storms - Curse on Hit - Enfeeble - Flamability
currently 5 link Golem setup.

Looks good. Just want to mention that since we're in HC, Glacial Cascade or Ball Lightning might be safer for applying curses in mapping situations. I tend to just stick with Orb for everything cause I'm lazy and forget to swap^^;

Btw I checked out your profile. Pierce I kind of get, but what's with GMP for your lightning golem? Wouldn't slower projectiles be better if you're forced to use a green?