Melee?

"

MullaXul wrote:

On another note, why don't you scrubs use Ethereal Knives or Freezing Pulse anymore? Oh that's right, no aoe/psuedo shotgunning crutch.

Because Freezing Pulse is kinda garbo anyway, especially now that shotgunning is gone. But also, FP doesn't really fit into the meta and it has a huge damage reduction in PVP from forever ago. The other thing about FP is that it attenuates kinda hard, and you kinda can't do anything with it given this off-screen meta going on. I *did* try it recently with some alright results, but GC is much better.

I intended "if you want to be creative" to mean "if someone wants to be creative" not you in particular, I think that was lost in translation/text or something and was taken the wrong way - that was not my intent. I'm trying to have a conversation, not insult (leave that to Mulla <3). Secondly, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, nor do I ever plan on that. What I'm trying to address is you claiming that melee isn't dead while you scale no melee damage at all.

I'm not targeting you specifically, I'm more speaking about the meta that we're in and have been in - it's fucked. You are proving my point quite well with this build and you either cannot see it or are refusing to see it. Your build does amazing damage especially with oro's, but how can you be surprised with wise oak/point blank/proj scaling on Molten's projs? You said it yourself "melee scaling is useless" - that just proves my point over and over how fucked melee is vs proj/other forms of scaling.

But seriously, how can you say "melee is not dead" out of one side of your mouth then say "melee scaling is useless" out of the other side and not see where I'm coming from? Everyone knows if you want to do GG attack damage you gotta use projectiles/pen etc... This way of playing is just too cookie cutter in my opnion, and if you don't see that then I don't know what to tell you. Examples like these will make this game even more and more like D3, and no one in their right mind would continue to play that kind of game for much longer (with the exception of the influx/outflux of new players).

Under your logic of close range = melee, my stupid pathfinder wander is melee, blade vortex is melee, discharge is melee, signal shot is melee, or even (to wax hyperbolic) miners w/ cwdt+det mines are melee if they go off in close range of your character. lol. I am not defining what is melee, I'm just calling bullshit on "melee is not dead!!!" meanwhile you scale no melee damage and rely on proj overlap. You are concentrating solely on the delivery of projectiles which could not be further from melee no matter the tag or range. I'm sure many melee players would agree. But then again the elitists call me too idealistic, so what do I know?

You do see the date on that shaper kill right? It's from a few days after shaper came out when Fyndel and I were the only ones publicly known for doing shaper at the time. I quickly did that video in order for Lifting/Hedg to use on their podcast per their request, BUT they went with a projectile attack skill on the podcast instead since more people play those. Pick your jaw up off the ground, I know you're surprised more people use proj skills than melee skills.


I have never aimed to be to be the most creative, nor have I ever had that claim. I typically prefer straight-forward builds that don't rely on broken mechanic after broken mechanic in order to call myself creative. My RT guy is about as straightforward as it gets, my vortex abuser was probably the easiest build I've ever done because it took very little thought at all, my stupid pathfinder concentrates on x-y damage and relies on flasks as a crutch (which I openly admit). My RF/SR guy is probably the most complex one I've done, and it's still not very complex at all.

I leave the complicated stuff to Markusz :D

"

Ahfack wrote:

I leave the complicated stuff to Markusz :D

I was skipping the wall of text, then you called me out, now I have to read everything? D:

http://poedb.tw/us/area.php?n=The+Shaper%27s+Realm

this is shaper.

20.1M health. around 8k damage per second.

in a game where there is a boss with 20M health, and weapons being 600-700 dps, what is the problem of having multi hitting skills?

taht's the elitism that i can't understand.

what do you expect from a single target in a game where bosses have 20M health and weapons have max 880 pdps. Do you remember what happens when the bosses are very hard? More monopolies. The times where only LL ST and some few build could farm über without problems - thwose were the times why do we still have monopolies in market. All these problems arised at those times. At those times the distance between poorr and normal normal and rich got wider and wider.

if you buff a non multi hitting skil lwhich doesnt require some scaling(helm enchantment & some certain jewels) this would impact races a lot, you guys always forget that too.

what is wrong that some guy picks oro's at the start of the league from loot and kills shaper with it after he farms for kaom's heart and for 6l?

also what is wrong of finding a way of scaling high damage with a melee weapon skill which goes through multi hitting? Diablo 2 Zeal was gay too, then? cause it hits multiple times per click. since we started this talk lets deal with melee definition question:

about the melee range - blade vortex - barrage -
with blade vortex you are not forced to stay in melee range, you can scale aoe(still same damage)
with barrage you are not forced to stay in melee range either, far from melee range you can deal attacks.

with molten strikes howeveer, you have to stay in melee range.

but i'm not completely ignoring what you are saying, i think i know how you feel,
blade vortex used to facetank shaper with low investment and was dealing millions of damage.

do you think they'll be able to facetank with their belly of the beast and 6k life from now on while there is no double dipping? or with their 8k ES and without instant leech?

no. that's good. that was the problem, double dipping, 9-10k ES with crap gear was the problem,9k instant leech with some overdone flask was the problem.

these skills hit hard because they are "close" range compared to others. that's logically correct. and they are single target killing skills, because many aspects in the game single target skills has to stay multi hitting skills - aoe or whatever. and that's all right.

also, it's really not hard to kill bosses with heavy strike cause you can benefit from abyssus. its basically 33% more damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpWI-r8wcVc

are we supposed to hate this too?

I tested something "similar" (focusing on molten type proj) few months ago but with Ngamahu's Flame in pvp.

If you use lacerate/sunder+ whatever + attack speed and build around projectiles and 20% molten burst, you can 1 shot 10k life users with the molten burst (no T value). Of course 20% chance to trigger is low but there is good potential imo since attack speed really trigger it often.

About what s melee or not, we all abused static strike aoe with 2h or even cyclone was not that much melee once you had multiple +2 range items

"

Rupenus wrote:

since we started this talk lets deal with melee definition question:

about the melee range - blade vortex - barrage -
with blade vortex you are not forced to stay in melee range, you can scale aoe(still same damage)
with barrage you are not forced to stay in melee range either, far from melee range you can deal attacks.

with molten strikes howeveer, you have to stay in melee range.

You have to stay in range to be efficient, which is the exact same case with BV or Barrage, which are also the most efficient when you are being in melee range, you are "forced" as much as with molten, and scaling AoE with BV is not the same damage, you always give up damage for AoE when you do that, gem slot, passives, flask slot etc.

We could mention more, better examples that often facetank without the melee tag, but it won't make them melee, just because of their range, and the projectiles of molten strike are not having the melee tag just as much as the other skills mentioned.

"

Márkusz wrote:

"

Rupenus wrote:

since we started this talk lets deal with melee definition question:

about the melee range - blade vortex - barrage -
with blade vortex you are not forced to stay in melee range, you can scale aoe(still same damage)
with barrage you are not forced to stay in melee range either, far from melee range you can deal attacks.

with molten strikes howeveer, you have to stay in melee range.

You have to stay in range to be efficient, which is the exact same case with BV or Barrage, which are also the most efficient when you are being in melee range, you are "forced" as much as with molten, and scaling AoE with BV is not the same damage, you always give up damage for AoE when you do that, gem slot, passives, flask slot etc.

We could mention more, better examples that often facetank without the melee tag, but it won't make them melee, just because of their range, and the projectiles of molten strike are not having the melee tag just as much as the other skills mentioned.

melee is an indication of range,

"

This term still applies to most role-playing games, but is often used in the context of first-person shooter video games to specify a non-ranged attack.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee_(gaming)

melee weapon attacks are from "melee" range,
BV can attack from melee range,

Molten strikes do no shit when you put aoe,
so it forces you to be NON-RANGED. which is melee. are we clear on this?

BV with conc can be considered as "melee range skill", but it's not melee attack(its not attack in terms of poe at all) cause you are not using melee weapon.

on the other hand, with molten strikes you attack from melee range, with a melee weapon but you focus on projectile damage(actually i focus on sword phys damage% on tree mostly) cause from melee range you burst molten projectiles. those projectiles doesnt make you "ranged". i cant attack to shaper from far, i have to face him, i have to take all the incoming damage from surrounding mobs.

that's what im trying to say.

if the melee is definition of non ranged attack, and you deal damage from melee range with a melee weapon, what makes heavy strike cooler than molten strike? what is legit about heavy strike, makes you feel like you are better than others, while both are forced to attack from melee range?

before you bring lightning strike to table:



barrage

By your logic Molten Shell is melee.

By your logic of using a melee weapon Spectral Throw is melee.

By in-game definition offscreening Lacerate is melee.

I hope you realise there is an exception to most of your arguments, or in general every ascpect of the game.

There is no solid threshold which below a projectile attack is considered melee unless you say so. You can scale down ST to be super small, will it be melee? I don't think so. But you can say otherwise.

If you rule out melee-range skills because they are being a spell, or not using a melee weapon, you can rule out MS projectiles because not having the melee tag.

Guys,

Check out this melee shaper kill



Not an attack, so it doesn't count? Ok here's another:



No melee tag, so it doesn't count? Ok here's another:



Totem doesn't count? Okay here's a cyclone one:


hue hue

I am confuse, wasn t the blonde brigade Melee thing accepting lacerate, molten-strike and Lightning strike?

Did you guys changed mind about what melee should be?