3.0 Dual Striker Leechtank The Wolf Bleeds Yet Dies Not 2xCORE SHAPER UBER ATZ [Umbra-Soup-Rogue]

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cocomoloco wrote:

So before stumbling upon this thread, I had the idea of a Dual Striker based on a 6L Cospri's Will to poison enemies. It would use Blasphemy Warlord's Mark as the first aura for leech and endurance charges, and maybe Enfeeble as the second aura, to make the loss of HP on the chest piece a little more bearable at least and prevent some of the oneshots (at least in theory).
Heavy evasion and Leech contradict each other though, so I was thinking about picking up Iron Reflexes.
One problem I see with this is the aforementioned loss of a lot of HP from Belly/BoR. The enfeeble helps but I'm not sure how much this will prevent being oneshot in reality.

I was also thinking about a different class because Marauders usually aren't the super fast blenders and, at least for me, immersion and character aesthetics are fun. And the build is all about fun, right?

So I was thinking about Duelist. But I already extensively played Duelist with Flicker Strike.

So I was thinking about Ranger and especially the Raider. Lotsa Frenzy charges equals lotsa speed. It offers some defense mechanism as well. But with Iron Reflexes, a huge part of the Raider's skillset becomes useless.

So I was thinking about Assassin because of Toxic Delivery. MMh juicy damage potential right there, plus it frees up the ring slot. Problem: Then the build needs to incorporate Crit as well in order to no waste half the Ascendancy. Even more damage, but I strongly suspect there aren't enough skillpoints in the game to invest in HP, Crit, Damage, AND Accuracy.

What do you think?

P.S. Also I literally only just now learned about the Kingmaker. WTF.

Without writing a lot, I can safely say almost everything in what you wrote is non-viable for my dual striker. Everything.

-Enfeeble will not ever help with anyone capable of one-shotting you. It will never make up for less health pool in ANY situation that does not have the lucky charms elf blessing you with amazing luck

-Warlord's Mark has proven unreliable in endgame as many mods and other factors in mapping and on bosses and unique enemies prevent its functionality, which is when you are most likely to die

-The only viable auras for my build are at its core: Hatred, Ash, Arctic Armor. Without those, DPS plummets so miserably you may as well go budget build and forget all bosses past t13

-Evasion and leech do not contradict as evasion and armor are not even factors in my build. My dual striker uses Rumi's Concoction, block, spell block, leech Fortify and Arctic Armor for damage mitigation. He simply does not dodge or evade or have any remarkable amount of armor. Leech and high health pools are almost exclusively what make him even capable of tanking at all. Sacrificing APS, health or leech in any way is Russian Roulette and you will lose

-My build, as explained in my guide, is only viable as a berserker marauder. There's no substitute. None of the skills or theorycraft ideas you have will work with my dual striker, and if you decide to try them be prepared for the inevitable changing from my build to one of your own, as your tree and gear will need to be so dramatically different that it would not even resemble my dual striker

Please read my guide and watch my videos. If you are not sufficiently impressed with how my dual striker plays I suggest you move on to another build and save time and money :D

First off: thank you a lot for taking the time to answer me, I really appreciate the dedication you have to your guide.
Also you are right that my ideas vary a LOT from your build principles and I was hesitant about asking here. However, not a lot of people are actually willing to discuss Dual Strike or have played Dual Strike builds before; the general consesus is that DS is garbage --> no use disussing there. You have experience with the skill so I thought you are the right person to talk to, even though it deviates from your build (which it does).

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-Enfeeble will not ever help with anyone capable of one-shotting you. It will never make up for less health pool in ANY situation that does not have the lucky charms elf blessing you with amazing luck.

Could you maybe elaborate why? Level 20 Enfeeble, supported with a 20% Blasphemy makes enemies deal 33% less damage. The way I understand it, this virtually gives us 33% more HP and thus should help not getting oneshot.

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-Evasion and leech do not contradict as evasion and armor are not even factors in my build. My dual striker uses Rumi's Concoction, block, spell block, leech Fortify and Arctic Armor for damage mitigation. He simply does not dodge or evade or have any remarkable amount of armor. Leech and high health pools are almost exclusively what make him even capable of tanking at all. Sacrificing APS, health or leech in any way is Russian Roulette and you will lose

You are absolutely right there. I even read before that your build doesn't really focus on Armor/evasion as a defense mechanism. I guess that was a brain fart on my part. Disregard.

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-My build, as explained in my guide, is only viable as a berserker marauder. There's no substitute. None of the skills or theorycraft ideas you have will work with my dual striker, and if you decide to try them be prepared for the inevitable changing from my build to one of your own, as your tree and gear will need to be so dramatically different that it would not even resemble my dual striker

Please read my guide and watch my videos. If you are not sufficiently impressed with how my dual striker plays I suggest you move on to another build and save time and money :D

Again, right you are. The build would dramatically change from yours but I was hoping you'd be willing to think about it. But of course it's totally understandable that you are here to elaborate on your own build instead of taking part in theorycrafting build deviations.

Also, it's not about being convinced that your build isn't working or that it isn't impressive. I think the videos clearly prove that. For me, it really is about immersion and I just don't like Marauders too much.

Again, thank you for your time and especially your guide.

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cocomoloco wrote:

First off: thank you a lot for taking the time to answer me, I really appreciate the dedication you have to your guide.
Also you are right that my ideas vary a LOT from your build principles and I was hesitant about asking here. However, not a lot of people are actually willing to discuss Dual Strike or have played Dual Strike builds before; the general consesus is that DS is garbage --> no use disussing there. You have experience with the skill so I thought you are the right person to talk to, even though it deviates from your build (which it does).

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-Enfeeble will not ever help with anyone capable of one-shotting you. It will never make up for less health pool in ANY situation that does not have the lucky charms elf blessing you with amazing luck.

Could you maybe elaborate why? Level 20 Enfeeble, supported with a 20% Blasphemy makes enemies deal 33% less damage. The way I understand it, this virtually gives us 33% more HP and thus should help not getting oneshot.

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-Evasion and leech do not contradict as evasion and armor are not even factors in my build. My dual striker uses Rumi's Concoction, block, spell block, leech Fortify and Arctic Armor for damage mitigation. He simply does not dodge or evade or have any remarkable amount of armor. Leech and high health pools are almost exclusively what make him even capable of tanking at all. Sacrificing APS, health or leech in any way is Russian Roulette and you will lose

You are absolutely right there. I even read before that your build doesn't really focus on Armor/evasion as a defense mechanism. I guess that was a brain fart on my part. Disregard.

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-My build, as explained in my guide, is only viable as a berserker marauder. There's no substitute. None of the skills or theorycraft ideas you have will work with my dual striker, and if you decide to try them be prepared for the inevitable changing from my build to one of your own, as your tree and gear will need to be so dramatically different that it would not even resemble my dual striker

Please read my guide and watch my videos. If you are not sufficiently impressed with how my dual striker plays I suggest you move on to another build and save time and money :D

Again, right you are. The build would dramatically change from yours but I was hoping you'd be willing to think about it. But of course it's totally understandable that you are here to elaborate on your own build instead of taking part in theorycrafting build deviations.

Also, it's not about being convinced that your build isn't working or that it isn't impressive. I think the videos clearly prove that. For me, it really is about immersion and I just don't like Marauders too much.

Again, thank you for your time and especially your guide.

Enfeeble "can" reduce up to 33% damage when certain conditions are met with itself, your situation and other support/skill gems

Why that sucks-
Reason 1- Degen like bleed, poison, freeze, shock, burn bonus damage etc will always bypass enfeeble. It is not a substitute for raw health. Maps will have "enemies cannot be cursed" or "enemies poison on hit" or crit effects like freeze that are better mitigated by large health pools. You will be weaker in every conceivable area except small situations where it's raw damage against your benefit of enfeeble. A lot of bosses in high tiers mix damages too, like Dom's soul attack is a mix physical and lightning which applies shock for 1.5x damage or something and so you need both armor and res plus the ability to take the extra shock damage. High life just nullifies all of that. No thought required. Just tank and if you're losing more life than you attack jump away. Meanwhile with enfeeble you'll take much more damage and could burst die. Those snakes that shoot poison needles at you can burst kill you as well when you are on maps like poison on hit + enemies fire 3 projectiles. Enfeeble with not help there either lol.

Here's a great doomed example- Cursing Atziri only curses you from her reflect nonsense. So you will curse her and yourself.

Another fun example- Cursing the Uber Trio is LAUGHABLE as they attack so fast with so much corrupted blood and poison that as far as I know I'm the only build that can out-leech them without burst dying when not using special defenses. I can tank 18 stacks of corrupted blood before my health slowly begins draining while continuously attacking. Let that figure sink it. 18 STACKS. Stack bro. lol. Why would you give that up for enfeeble? Larger health pool helps leech. You don't wanna lose that.

Here's what I sense from you. You are fighting my build's style because you see something you like but don't want the whole package. As you said too, you don't like marauders but mine is the best! My build has always been very stiff though, it's why after 3 years no one has taken it and done anything with it.

You want to gain something with your theorized setup for reasons I don't know, but the gain you see yourself getting on paper is not a gain in reality when the game starts throwing crap at you. Health is true power to mitigate damage. The reality is, when you desperately need enfeeble to work it will not be better than raw health and my build can accept no weakness because it seeks to stick a needle in GGG's eye. My build wants to flat-out Shaper and maybe someday it will, but I can say it will never with enfeeble. So with that alone, it means enfeeble is a step down not a step up. I could go on and explain how horribly I've lost money from deaths while mapping not even from bosses from crap mods.

You can always rely on raw health with perfect efficiency. You will have true control over all battles. Before you fight Malachai, you will know you cannot take his heavy slam but can tank everything else because health is math that won't be affected by variables on bosses or maps. It's yes or no, can or cannot. Relying on enfeeble is situational and will eventually fail you when you start hitting those mega bosses, double bosses and modded maps that bring witches and other fake-strong characters to their absolute knees. Not to say they aren't strong in other ways, we are indeed comparing tanking as a form of strength to combining less health with support magic. Note the word, "support magic." Support.

My dual striker has clear limits, and those limits are etched in stone for your very survival and control. There is no guessing or tricks or mods that can bring him to his knees. There are a few one-shot mechanics he has to avoid. And. That's. It. In every conceivable way enfeeble is absolutely inferior to having even just a little more health.

By the way, my build uses Vulnerability which if you have enough intelligence can be swapped out for Enfeeble, but as I remember it needed much more intelligence than my build can achieve without great sacrifice. What can I say, my dual striker is kinda dumb!

Something Umbra is forgetting to mention, Berserker Marauder is mandatory because of the 100% life leech after you take a big hit. THAT and that alone is why Berserker is of utmost importance. That is why we stack life like there's no tomorrow in lieu of armor. That is the only necessary answer to 'but what about gladiator or assassin etc'.


Also, Umbra, you keep bringing up your fancy legacy gear, but forget that most of us play the leagues. When we are comparing BoR to Belly, we are most likely talking about the current stuff. I think we have all come to a consensus that with only the gear available in the leagues, Belly>BoR.

Also, with the changes to DoT damage, since we don't crit, this will be a huge buff to our poisons and bleeds. This will be fantasmic in 3.0!

Thanks for the feedback

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-5L Belly is NOT superior to a legacy legacy legacy (lol) Bringer of Rain. Block is better than a couple hundred life if you are not managing max res in high tier maps and do not already have a life pool beyond 7500. Furthermore, if you are struggling for DPS then the BoR is superior for clear speed and leech effectiveness. you can safely trade out BoR when you are really pimping some high end gear at least capable of killing Uber Trio 100% of the time
-Your biggest source of damage is one epic rare axe and a legacy legacy ?legacy? Soul Taker lol so many legacy versions, you want the oldest legacy of course, same with BoR

Getting legacy gear still a long way to go for me. The cost of Legacy BoR and Soul Taker is insanely expensive for me. I do have voidheart ring.


I might try going Gung Ho with regular BoR and regular Voidheart while ignoring the lack of res stat and see how it goes.

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roguemjb wrote:

Something Umbra is forgetting to mention, Berserker Marauder is mandatory because of the 100% life leech after you take a big hit. THAT and that alone is why Berserker is of utmost importance. That is why we stack life like there's no tomorrow in lieu of armor. That is the only necessary answer to 'but what about gladiator or assassin etc'.


Also, Umbra, you keep bringing up your fancy legacy gear, but forget that most of us play the leagues. When we are comparing BoR to Belly, we are most likely talking about the current stuff. I think we have all come to a consensus that with only the gear available in the leagues, Belly>BoR.

Also, with the changes to DoT damage, since we don't crit, this will be a huge buff to our poisons and bleeds. This will be fantasmic in 3.0!

Playing non-standard isn't smart with such a gear dependent build like mine. I didn't forget berserker or the fact that others play in non-standard, I write too much already even without bringing that stuff up. It's all in the guide already lol. But all leagues come to standard eventually, so the only benefit to non-standard is the economy. But since I speak on pure endgame, it means standard legacies are required.

I don't miss these things, I just get tired of writing what's already written in my guide. Seems rude to say it, I know, but look at the amount replies my thread has received, and that's excluding PM's and in-game whispers.

Lol. Silly man! Trix are for kids

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Athnamos wrote:

Thanks for the feedback

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Umbra_the_Wolf wrote:

-5L Belly is NOT superior to a legacy legacy legacy (lol) Bringer of Rain. Block is better than a couple hundred life if you are not managing max res in high tier maps and do not already have a life pool beyond 7500. Furthermore, if you are struggling for DPS then the BoR is superior for clear speed and leech effectiveness. you can safely trade out BoR when you are really pimping some high end gear at least capable of killing Uber Trio 100% of the time
-Your biggest source of damage is one epic rare axe and a legacy legacy ?legacy? Soul Taker lol so many legacy versions, you want the oldest legacy of course, same with BoR

Getting legacy gear still a long way to go for me. The cost of Legacy BoR and Soul Taker is insanely expensive for me. I do have voidheart ring.

I might try going Gung Ho with regular BoR and regular Voidheart while ignoring the lack of res stat and see how it goes.

Do whatever works! And then do it some more. I was once poor and had to grind, trade, respec and so on. I spent over 3 years perfecting this dude. Believe me, I know your pain better than you do :D

poo some bacon!

Hey man.
Just wanted to ask is this build still viable?
I see that this build can faceroll realllyyy well. That's something i actually need because i play on insanely high pings around 150ms.
The last build i did was a chaos damage and poison based tornado shot it was insane did phoenix and minotaur on my first attempt.. tho died 2 times xD . and failed at shaper because of his 1 shot Frostbolts which are hard for me to avoid becuase of the ping .
Anyway , shaper does mellee attacks if you stay in his mellee range , which this build cna fulfil , and if i get a high hit , i can leech instant as well.
So , everything in this build suits me extremely well. But , is this still viable?? Will make it as LSC .

Also , for this build whih one sounds better?? Nightmare Bascinet? Or a random life and ele res helmet witha decent 6l belly or maybe a 6l random gear with 100+ to max life and some ele res? Also , if not able to cap ele res , is it fine to get a ele res with ms boots instead of kaom?