The most horrible sub-forums ever?

"

IceDeal wrote:

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

It brings me down to why am i playing a caster when i could own more with a build that cost so much less ? It's because i saw, done, experienced and got bored of such things. I feel better maxing out a spec that requires more pvp experience, more crafting, planning than going for the easy route which everyone seems to be taking right now. Believe it or not i could afford the best of the best ea spec with 1/3 of what my caster spec costed me right now...

100% this, there is no best feeling in the world that when you finally managed to theorycraft a succesfull build and master it. That's also why so many players are reticent to give away their build because for most of us, it's the result of hundreds of hours of experience and theorycraft. But recently i've been more open about what i do and gladly link my gear or explain a bit of my spec to people asking for it.

I'd really like people to get into this state of mind because it's an incredibly satisfying part of the game way better than just following blindly a build found on the forum. But at the same time I do understand that this game can be very confusing some time and that some people don't have the motivation to try dozens of different variants of build before finding what's working.

True, i would probably share my crit ll caster with the community if it wasnt for how much time i spent trying shit out etc. The gear is not the biggest factor into why people arent sharing, it's more down to how many fucking regrets you spent yourself to reach that perfected build. Take it like this why would i give away my tree when i spent months and thousands of regrets to finally figure out the best paths to take, why would others get it without doing shit when i went crazy on figuring it out ? it's just common sense and yes it does suck for newcomers but that's how it is... a millionaire doesnt get rich out of nowhere ( there are exceptions ) he has to work hard for it.

Peace !

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

"

IceDeal wrote:

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

It brings me down to why am i playing a caster when i could own more with a build that cost so much less ? It's because i saw, done, experienced and got bored of such things. I feel better maxing out a spec that requires more pvp experience, more crafting, planning than going for the easy route which everyone seems to be taking right now. Believe it or not i could afford the best of the best ea spec with 1/3 of what my caster spec costed me right now...

100% this, there is no best feeling in the world that when you finally managed to theorycraft a succesfull build and master it. That's also why so many players are reticent to give away their build because for most of us, it's the result of hundreds of hours of experience and theorycraft. But recently i've been more open about what i do and gladly link my gear or explain a bit of my spec to people asking for it.

I'd really like people to get into this state of mind because it's an incredibly satisfying part of the game way better than just following blindly a build found on the forum. But at the same time I do understand that this game can be very confusing some time and that some people don't have the motivation to try dozens of different variants of build before finding what's working.

True, i would probably share my crit ll caster with the community if it wasnt for how much time i spent trying shit out etc. The gear is not the biggest factor into why people arent sharing, it's more down to how many fucking regrets you spent yourself to reach that perfected build. Take it like this why would i give away my tree when i spent months and thousands of regrets to finally figure out the best paths to take, why would others get it without doing shit when i went crazy on figuring it out ? it's just common sense and yes it does suck for newcomers but that's how it is... a millionaire doesnt get rich out of nowhere ( there are exceptions ) he has to work hard for it.

Peace !

Ok, so I get where you're coming from but then people shouldn't complain about the lack of PvP participation, which is an issue I think everyone has brought up at some point. Also, you don't need to share your exact passive tree and all the intricacies but I think it would help the community to put at least a filtered version, or a high level guide to some of the important factors to consider (i.e. gem links, spells that work well, cast speed vs. crit dmg, etc.). And I'm not just talking about LL crit casters, but also other builds out there.

I get it, you spent thousands of regrets so you're reticent to share the optimal build you've come up with. What about the other 50 builds you've come across? Aren't there any good ones that you would be willing to post for others? Look, if you want to keep PvPing the same 10 people then by all means keep everything to yourself. But, if we as a community want to grow, we have to spend more time educating others and getting them excited. Again, doesn't have to be your exact 'perfect' build but realistically we need more content (i.e. builds, theorycrafting, general information) in a central, easy to find location, to get more people involved.

"

I compare this to ''Grief'' sword back in diablo 2 where i used to do lots of zealot gm duels, where we would always ban this weapon because it was too strong, anyone who claimed or started bragging which that weapon was instantly downgraded and disliked by the community, it's pretty similar with EA in poe right now, players using grief in d2 were mostly trolls and was not really taking shit seriously.

Grief PB's haha. I remember going into Duels games and there was always one guy that was some die hard melee do gooder using rare accuracy circlets and shit and a Botd zerker axe or a rare one because that was the "legit" way of dueling.

On the subject of build sharing though. We all started at ground zero and some of us started at the worst times when viable items were really scarce. Now a days the wiki is really helpful, items are everywhere and with the exception of mirrored or legacy gear you can grab some solid stuff for literally under 50ex. Resulting in a really good PvP/PvM character that you either A. use as a stepping stone or B. stick with and min-max and master.

The link in profile crap down below address's a lot of PvP ins and outs. Plus narrows down the cheap viable options and why they work. Plus coincidentally the Rain of Arrows build I outlined got buffed in 2.1. I'll likely revise it with a new tree and maybe make it it's own thread plus update anything else that's changed.

-Bino's or any 300+dps rare dagger with good base crit chance. Bino's is frankly superior to most under 350-400dps daggers though.
-Whispering ice
-Explosive arrow
-Atziri's axe
-Soul Taker believe it or not is slept on, yes..the new one even.
-Pledge of hands
-Any trap build
-Iron will casters are non existent but have potential for days especially now with unique jewels and IW gem buff
-Lion eye's/Chin sol/350-400dps rare bow crit builds

There's quite a few more. You can build any of these under 50ex and do some damage in PvP. Match up's vary, some are more winnable then others but that's how it goes even if you're in it for 1000's of exalts. Also we don't know yet how good enchantments will be, that could bump any given build up a notch or two using "attainable" gear since you can't use them on mirrored pieces.

"

Ok, so I get where you're coming from but then people shouldn't complain about the lack of PvP participation, which is an issue I think everyone has brought up at some point. Also, you don't need to share your exact passive tree and all the intricacies but I think it would help the community to put at least a filtered version, or a high level guide to some of the important factors to consider (i.e. gem links, spells that work well, cast speed vs. crit dmg, etc.). And I'm not just talking about LL crit casters, but also other builds out there.

I get it, you spent thousands of regrets so you're reticent to share the optimal build you've come up with. What about the other 50 builds you've come across? Aren't there any good ones that you would be willing to post for others? Look, if you want to keep PvPing the same 10 people then by all means keep everything to yourself. But, if we as a community want to grow, we have to spend more time educating others and getting them excited. Again, doesn't have to be your exact 'perfect' build but realistically we need more content (i.e. builds, theorycrafting, general information) in a central, easy to find location, to get more people involved.

I cant make a build for you, but i can help you tune your build to achieve the max output from it, there are so many possibilities that it's up to you to choose what type of spec you want to pvp with. The main issue is not that we dont share our builds it's that people dont want to ask for help because they are scared or dont feel condifent enough to ask. If someone would pm me asking for help with his pvp build i would gladly do so, but i would never make it for him to ease his task, you need to put in work no matter what. Essentially players need to play PVE before stepping into PVP, you need to understand almost if not all of the content before even trying to get competitive, and at this point you should be pretty able to make your own pvp build by taking ideas and ASKING for help when you are stuck with it. PvP is in my opinion too competitive to have generalized build guides like we have for pve, it's pretty normal for such environnement to be enclosed like that, in almost every game pvp is a minority and people will protect what makes them win.

Anyways i would gladly help anyone who seeks help with his future pvp build, LLD or HLD, but i will not share anything in a complete guide as it is way too vast to pin down in a whole thread...

The first thing a new pvp player should be doing is check the currency bracket of each type of builds. An exemple would be EA which requires little investments and is imo the most noob friendly pvp build, the last one would be low life crit caster which requires the most investment from my perspective.

A short list would be

first = least, last = most investment.

1 = minimal investment 2 = medium 3 = high

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1: Life builds : bow - traps - 2h - 1h - caster ( note that any of those crit based is more investment )

2: es builds : traps - 1h sword - crit dagger - caster ( crit = more investment )

3: low life builds : traps - caster ( again crit = more investment )

there are more types i know, this is just to give an idea.

"

"

IceDeal wrote:

As long as you won't recognize that playing EA in pvp is giving you an unfair advantage against everyone by exploiting the fact that secondary damage bypass all defenses and that the skill scale so well by itself allowing you to focus on defenses, no one will take you seriously.

Heck even Mies agree that this shit is broken and he was the one who made it popular. It's ok to abuse something as long as you recognize it. I abused the shit out Tempest Shield on his previous form (never on a 6L though) and was thrilled to see fast hitter totally shut down by it but the skill was unfair and way too strong (GGG actually handled it really well, making it a fair skill while still remaining powerfull, i'd like EA to have the same treatment).

Please quote me on where, I think EA is not strong.

Thanks.


The notion of hipster-ism EVERYBODY IS PLAYING THAT BUILD I wana play something new that I invent myself is just stupid, everything is done before, what is being played the most, just means its the most commonly accept means of effectiveness.

Like I said before and again, EVEN if EA is completely deleted, They'll always be a new skill that's "Stronger" or you would say "BROKEN"/ "Unfair advantage" They'll never be true balance. Life is never fair get over it. It's a RPG, Time investment, and accumulated currency will almost always pay off, or else why don't we just play Moba games instead? If you want a "Fair" wealth society playing field.

or FPS games if you want "True" skill (everybody with google fibre ofc cause, "lag")

Well IF they ''delete'' EA from the game, there will be a broken skill of course, but that skill would be less broken than EA for sure, and that skill will require more micromanagement, theorycrafting and gear investment than EA. thats for sure too. EA outplays melee totally from the game which is no fair. EA outplays almost every caster in the game, which is totally unfair. EA has no weakness, no downside, almost no gear requirement at all. These have been said 1000 times i dont wanna repeat these

i've been in touch with you, you tried many different gem setups, jewelry setups, you did many experiments to max EA's potential to highest limits. YOu had 7 mirrors when you started pvp, and last time we talked you had 3 mirrors only in your bank. All the profits you did meanwhile wasted on experiments of your build too. I think we all are agree that you deserve respect for what you did.

but what you miss is, EA is giving no chance to most of builds in this game, there is no possibility to find a way to succesfully do micromanagement in pvp areas vs EA. LA is broken too, but almost every build have a chance to kill LA cause there is a weakness: you are squishy, whatever you try. LA secondary damage can be dodged, blocked, evaded, you can fail accuracy check... etc. LA passive Tree requires a lot investment on movespeed + dps to get viable. You cant give up using Lioneye's Vision. No skills provides such overpowered abilities to its users like EA. Your tree is for example all about life + regen + movespeed + jewels. All your dps relies on jewels, i know your tree. I cant get my damage properties from jewels, i must insist on taking damage nodes over yummy life nodes to be able to kill 2H cycloners, other tanky yet high DPS builds.

In short the problem is: With some certain builds vs EA, whatever you try, whatever you do, you have no chance at all, there is no reason to even trying micromanagement at all. such a problem is not a balance problem at all, this is obviously a secondary damage programming failure of GGG, that they cant fix it even. Broken is, EA is doing same damage i do with my 2000ex build with much lesser gear investment and dps nodes on tree. Thats broken. but thats okay! Broken stuff are always welcome in HLD pvp, thats what HLD is about. I dont seek for balance in HLD.

"

Edit: To critically understand what is mechanically strong, or stronger means that you're just a better min max player, the general consensus that EA is like a hack or bot, and everyone using it is a hacker/ should be banned. Yet, nobody acknowledges the also shotgun mechanic's of LA etc.

LA's mechanic:

Ill try to explain with my unsufficient english.

LA sees a wall as an ''unit'' and when LA projectile hits any ''unit''(player, wall, trap etc) it chains to other units around it.(this can be another wall) When there is a wall it explodes on the wall and chains to very near targets, cause projectile ends there. LA projectiles explode also when their travel is over.(thats the explantion of my offscreen one shots when you are very far from me, you get shotgunned too) With pierce, the projectile chained attack doesnt end its travel on the wall and seeks for nearest targets. and keep chaining. This happens for all projectiles on the radius and you shotgun.

Example 1

ME
-------------------- Frost WAll


IwantleodailyXDXDXD xXx_PoePvpsucks_xXx

These two dudes gonna die. Both of them.

Example 2

ME





Far
Very Far
Faaar

Ihaveblockbuildgetrekt Ihaveblockbuildtoo


LA's max projectile range(i can one shot them when they are here, but these guys are a bit closer)

ill one shot these guys too. Cause my projectiles gonnachain between them. If they were alone i wouldnt be able to kill them. But just because projectiles chain when LA hits an ''unit'' they both gonna die.

we did tests with dethlok, with 75% pierce i hit like for 6k, with 100% pierce i can one shot him from 10.2K life. Pierce allows projectiles to chain, all projectiles chain to same target = shotgun.

Another quality post, i should report it with the mention "Read that stuff, this guy explain it all".

Would it be only in 1vs1 I could pass on the problem but seeing a team of 3 EA dude scoping 360 degree from the middle of Sarn arena (thanks to the uper position the arrow explode on the ground) and killing everyone offscreen just by randomly spamming is even more frustrating ( absolutely no skill or micromanagement involved, we can agree on that). And apparently it's about to get worse.

"

Rupenus wrote:

"

"

IceDeal wrote:

As long as you won't recognize that playing EA in pvp is giving you an unfair advantage against everyone by exploiting the fact that secondary damage bypass all defenses and that the skill scale so well by itself allowing you to focus on defenses, no one will take you seriously.

Heck even Mies agree that this shit is broken and he was the one who made it popular. It's ok to abuse something as long as you recognize it. I abused the shit out Tempest Shield on his previous form (never on a 6L though) and was thrilled to see fast hitter totally shut down by it but the skill was unfair and way too strong (GGG actually handled it really well, making it a fair skill while still remaining powerfull, i'd like EA to have the same treatment).

Please quote me on where, I think EA is not strong.

Thanks.


The notion of hipster-ism EVERYBODY IS PLAYING THAT BUILD I wana play something new that I invent myself is just stupid, everything is done before, what is being played the most, just means its the most commonly accept means of effectiveness.

Like I said before and again, EVEN if EA is completely deleted, They'll always be a new skill that's "Stronger" or you would say "BROKEN"/ "Unfair advantage" They'll never be true balance. Life is never fair get over it. It's a RPG, Time investment, and accumulated currency will almost always pay off, or else why don't we just play Moba games instead? If you want a "Fair" wealth society playing field.

or FPS games if you want "True" skill (everybody with google fibre ofc cause, "lag")

Well IF they ''delete'' EA from the game, there will be a broken skill of course, but that skill would be less broken than EA for sure, and that skill will require more micromanagement, theorycrafting and gear investment than EA. thats for sure too. EA outplays melee totally from the game which is no fair. EA outplays almost every caster in the game, which is totally unfair. EA has no weakness, no downside, almost no gear requirement at all. These have been said 1000 times i dont wanna repeat these

i've been in touch with you, you tried many different gem setups, jewelry setups, you did many experiments to max EA's potential to highest limits. YOu had 7 mirrors when you started pvp, and last time we talked you had 3 mirrors only in your bank. All the profits you did meanwhile wasted on experiments of your build too. I think we all are agree that you deserve respect for what you did.

but what you miss is, EA is giving no chance to most of builds in this game, there is no possibility to find a way to succesfully do micromanagement in pvp areas vs EA. LA is broken too, but almost every build have a chance to kill LA cause there is a weakness: you are squishy, whatever you try. LA secondary damage can be dodged, blocked, evaded, you can fail accuracy check... etc. LA passive Tree requires a lot investment on movespeed + dps to get viable. You cant give up using Lioneye's Vision. No skills provides such overpowered abilities to its users like EA. Your tree is for example all about life + regen + movespeed + jewels. All your dps relies on jewels, i know your tree. I cant get my damage properties from jewels, i must insist on taking damage nodes over yummy life nodes to be able to kill 2H cycloners, other tanky yet high DPS builds.

In short the problem is: With some certain builds vs EA, whatever you try, whatever you do, you have no chance at all, there is no reason to even trying micromanagement at all. such a problem is not a balance problem at all, this is obviously a secondary damage programming failure of GGG, that they cant fix it even. Broken is, EA is doing same damage i do with my 2000ex build with much lesser gear investment and dps nodes on tree. Thats broken. but thats okay! Broken stuff are always welcome in HLD pvp, thats what HLD is about. I dont seek for balance in HLD.

"

Edit: To critically understand what is mechanically strong, or stronger means that you're just a better min max player, the general consensus that EA is like a hack or bot, and everyone using it is a hacker/ should be banned. Yet, nobody acknowledges the also shotgun mechanic's of LA etc.

LA's mechanic:

Ill try to explain with my unsufficient english.

LA sees a wall as an ''unit'' when LA hits an unit it chains to other units around it. When there is a wall it explodes on the wall and chains to very near targets, cause projectile ends there. LA projectiles explode alsowhen their travel is over.(thats the explantion of my offscreen one shots when you are very far from me, you get shotgunned too) With pierce, the projectile chained attack doesnt end its travel on the wall and seeks for nearest targets. This happens for all projectiles on the radius and you shotgun.

Example 1

ME
-------------------- Frost WAll


IwantleodailyXDXDXD xXx_PoePvpsucks_xXx

These two dudes gonna die. Both of them.

Example 2

ME





Far
Very Far
Faaar

Ihaveblockbuildgetrekt Ihaveblockbuildtoo


LA's max projectile range(i can one shot them when they are here, but these guys are a bit closer)

ill one shot these guys too. Cause my projectiles gonnachain between them. If they were alone i wouldnt be able to kill them. But just because projectiles chain when LA hits an ''unit'' they both gonna die.

we did tests with dethlok, with 75% pierce i hit like for 6k, with 100% pierce i can one shot him from 10.2K life. Pierce allows projectiles to chain, all projectiles chain to same target = shotgun.

Thanks Nurse, I know how La/ Ea works, if you recall, I was the person who suggested to you too go La when you wanted to go LL +1 shavs firestorm, and successfully stopping you, and would have saved you a hefty discount, if you had taken the deal. /Not drove the relationship of me and the seller apart. ( and saving you the inevitable shavs market price crash) & loaned you currency, and your betrayal etc etc etc but that's a story for another day.

Like I said in my post, Never once did I not admit Ea is not mechanically strong. Its strong, if not strongest ( Why the fuck would I want to use shit skills like 1 link frost nova in hld?). Matter of fact in my other forum posts, I welcome a wider pvp builds variety. This half wit believes he holds morale high ground, in "handicapping" himself, when he isn't even in the top competitive scene and anything that beats him is deemed (no skill broken bot/ hacks/ forbidden by ggg) The definition of denial and personal surrender? Perhaps. As he believes that gem and skill trees is his own, and haven't been done ever before. Or that "my build" is a direct copy of another.

I answered your initial question,

"

IceDeal wrote:

As long as you won't recognize that playing EA in pvp is giving you an unfair advantage against everyone by exploiting the fact that secondary damage bypass all defenses and that the skill scale so well by itself allowing you to focus on defenses, no one will take you seriously.

Heck even Mies agree that this shit is broken and he was the one who made it popular. It's ok to abuse something as long as you recognize it. I abused the shit out Tempest Shield on his previous form (never on a 6L though) and was thrilled to see fast hitter totally shut down by it but the skill was unfair and way too strong (GGG actually handled it really well, making it a fair skill while still remaining powerfull, i'd like EA to have the same treatment).

"

"

IceDeal wrote:

As long as you won't recognize that playing EA in pvp is giving you an unfair advantage against everyone by exploiting the fact that secondary damage bypass all defenses and that the skill scale so well by itself allowing you to focus on defenses, no one will take you seriously.

Heck even Mies agree that this shit is broken and he was the one who made it popular. It's ok to abuse something as long as you recognize it. I abused the shit out Tempest Shield on his previous form (never on a 6L though) and was thrilled to see fast hitter totally shut down by it but the skill was unfair and way too strong (GGG actually handled it really well, making it a fair skill while still remaining powerfull, i'd like EA to have the same treatment).

Please quote me on where, I think EA is not strong.

Thanks.

Edit: To critically understand what is mechanically strong, or stronger means that you're just a better min max player, the general consensus that EA is like a hack or bot, and everyone using it is a hacker/ should be banned. Yet, nobody acknowledges the also shotgun mechanic's of LA etc.

The notion of hipster-ism EVERYBODY IS PLAYING THAT BUILD I wana play something new that I invent myself is just stupid, everything is done before, what is being played the most, just means its the most commonly accept means of effectiveness.

Like I said before and again, EVEN if EA is completely deleted, They'll always be a new skill that's "Stronger" or you would say "BROKEN"/ "Unfair advantage" They'll never be true balance. Life is never fair get over it. It's a RPG, Time investment, and accumulated currency will almost always pay off, or else why don't we just play Moba games instead? If you want a "Fair" wealth society playing field.

or FPS games if you want "True" skill (everybody with google fibre ofc cause, "lag")

Answer mine. and stop nit picking and derailing from your original point.

Heh, anyways seemingly from your amount of posts, and the shit talking behind my back on another thread, you seemed pretty riled up, and your almost hostile responses, just proves lapriz's point, proves how players like you and your circle jerking your salt lake bias hatred, devalues the pvp subforms.

I tried to reason and play nice, but under the international laws of the internet and victor of the pvp realms, Both Us & Eu #1,

I hereby claim U MAD BRO?

#1 of EA toons that's for sure at the moment, you totally deserve it.

#1 of PVP ? Not even close, the young crawls before he can start to run.

If you think being the #1 pvper is only relying down on reaching the top ranks you are truly mistaken, 1/3 of the pvp pop is playing right now and some out there are much more experienced and have a lot more credit in the pvp community than you do... If it would only rely on ranks then you should start calling me god right now for how many times ive reached that rank in my poe lifetime.

There's always this particular one to revive the old, yawn. . .

Btw u coulda just said my name you dont have to be subtile about it just saying o.O

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

"

Ok, so I get where you're coming from but then people shouldn't complain about the lack of PvP participation, which is an issue I think everyone has brought up at some point. Also, you don't need to share your exact passive tree and all the intricacies but I think it would help the community to put at least a filtered version, or a high level guide to some of the important factors to consider (i.e. gem links, spells that work well, cast speed vs. crit dmg, etc.). And I'm not just talking about LL crit casters, but also other builds out there.

I get it, you spent thousands of regrets so you're reticent to share the optimal build you've come up with. What about the other 50 builds you've come across? Aren't there any good ones that you would be willing to post for others? Look, if you want to keep PvPing the same 10 people then by all means keep everything to yourself. But, if we as a community want to grow, we have to spend more time educating others and getting them excited. Again, doesn't have to be your exact 'perfect' build but realistically we need more content (i.e. builds, theorycrafting, general information) in a central, easy to find location, to get more people involved.

I cant make a build for you, but i can help you tune your build to achieve the max output from it, there are so many possibilities that it's up to you to choose what type of spec you want to pvp with. The main issue is not that we dont share our builds it's that people dont want to ask for help because they are scared or dont feel condifent enough to ask. If someone would pm me asking for help with his pvp build i would gladly do so, but i would never make it for him to ease his task, you need to put in work no matter what. Essentially players need to play PVE before stepping into PVP, you need to understand almost if not all of the content before even trying to get competitive, and at this point you should be pretty able to make your own pvp build by taking ideas and ASKING for help when you are stuck with it. PvP is in my opinion too competitive to have generalized build guides like we have for pve, it's pretty normal for such environnement to be enclosed like that, in almost every game pvp is a minority and people will protect what makes them win.

Anyways i would gladly help anyone who seeks help with his future pvp build, LLD or HLD, but i will not share anything in a complete guide as it is way too vast to pin down in a whole thread...

The first thing a new pvp player should be doing is check the currency bracket of each type of builds. An exemple would be EA which requires little investments and is imo the most noob friendly pvp build, the last one would be low life crit caster which requires the most investment from my perspective.

A short list would be

first = least, last = most investment.

1 = minimal investment 2 = medium 3 = high

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1: Life builds : bow - traps - 2h - 1h - caster ( note that any of those crit based is more investment )

2: es builds : traps - 1h sword - crit dagger - caster ( crit = more investment )

3: low life builds : traps - caster ( again crit = more investment )

there are more types i know, this is just to give an idea.

Agree with everything here pretty much butone thing. 2h is not cheap, at all. Atleast not if you want to be competitive. Remember when I mirrored a glyph mark for offhand to proc molten/stop es recharging because glare's damage was non existing lol(obviously thought about using it for a ranged char too)

I agree tommie, not the cheapest but not the most expensive, afterall you need only 1 maxed item to get full hands and life gear is pretty common to get except for the kaoms, but yes i understand your point :P i wrote this up very quickly and i hope you can tell it wasnt calculated properly hehe :)

i mostly based myself on people playing a 500 life kaoms 2h atziri cyclone build which wasnt the best but could surely go beyond all mid tier to some top tiers easily, but ofcourse you can max things out and make it go expensive. Though i can see it becoming very expensive now since bcr cluster is removed for sword.