Reddit thread + podcast about racing,

i still have a hard time buying the argument "bad rng prevents me from setting records". not in the sense that the argument is false, it's true, but the only reason you are racing is to set records AND THAT should dictate what role rng plays in races (that's what i perceive the argument to be). it's also even worse to me that this argument is being made in regards to stats which you can guarantee 100% mitigate through the skill tree, when in fact we should be looking at things like MS and Quicksilvers which is an rng factor that cannot be mitigated.

i think a big problem is the point reward structure, the actual points rewarded, and how to reflect performance more accurately to prevent things like sheer raw quantity of races with mediocre performance looking better on paper than what it actually is.

-HeaT

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HeaT1 wrote:

i still have a hard time buying the argument "bad rng prevents me from setting records". not in the sense that the argument is false, it's true, but the only reason you are racing is to set records AND THAT should dictate what role rng plays in races (that's what i perceive the argument to be). it's also even worse to me that this argument is being made in regards to stats which you can guarantee 100% mitigate through the skill tree, when in fact we should be looking at things like MS and Quicksilvers which is an rng factor that cannot be mitigated.

i think a big problem is the point reward structure, the actual points rewarded, and how to reflect performance more accurately to prevent things like sheer raw quantity of races with mediocre performance looking better on paper than what it actually is.

-HeaT

I don't think I actually said that the stats are only thing to ruin the record. It's one thing that is a MUST to have in order to score the record. If you spend 2 points for getting that extra dex to level your firetrap, you're losing SO MUCH damage which is directly clearspeed.

Mob / density rng, pack-to-pack time (aka QS, MS, layout rng in non-fixed seed races), ability to level up your gems (aka getting that jade, or dex elsewhere, if you don't get +1 AND you'd have to waste 2 points getting dex you're just... You can see where it's going?) and player skill is ALL NEEDED for the top of the top scores.

Take one out and you're fucked.

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Karvarousku wrote:

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HeaT1 wrote:

i still have a hard time buying the argument "bad rng prevents me from setting records". not in the sense that the argument is false, it's true, but the only reason you are racing is to set records AND THAT should dictate what role rng plays in races (that's what i perceive the argument to be). it's also even worse to me that this argument is being made in regards to stats which you can guarantee 100% mitigate through the skill tree, when in fact we should be looking at things like MS and Quicksilvers which is an rng factor that cannot be mitigated.

i think a big problem is the point reward structure, the actual points rewarded, and how to reflect performance more accurately to prevent things like sheer raw quantity of races with mediocre performance looking better on paper than what it actually is.

-HeaT

I don't think I actually said that the stats are only thing to ruin the record. It's one thing that is a MUST to have in order to score the record. If you spend 2 points for getting that extra dex to level your firetrap, you're losing SO MUCH damage which is directly clearspeed.

Mob / density rng, pack-to-pack time (aka QS, MS, layout rng in non-fixed seed races), ability to level up your gems (aka getting that jade, or dex elsewhere, if you don't get +1 AND you'd have to waste 2 points getting dex you're just... You can see where it's going?) and player skill is ALL NEEDED for the top of the top scores.

Take one out and you're fucked.

kapparousku

i dont think i said it was the only thing, i just dont think that is something that should have priority when in the scale of things, it's not on the top of factors that seriously affect runs (for reasons i have already said). personally i think MS/2 QS right now is the most pressing issues in terms of RNG.

there were other discussions before on the forums with some racers who really thought this (stats/dex amulet etc) was important, and they made it seem like it was do or die, didn't really mean to aim this criticism directly at you karv. also, im glad you brought all these things up in podcast i hope it is a catalyst for GGG to do something.

"ALL NEEDED for the top of the top scores" <--- see again it comes down to "top scores" and records, people who compete professionally dont come out in their particular sport/event and think it's all or nothing, world record balls to the wall YOLO or nothing, only 1 strategy is going to work type shit. you generally want to win in that given instance regardless of record or not. (winning is different than setting records) i think this issue is exacerbated by the way the point structure works imo.

one more thing, i think karv you said it on the podcast and i think mors has brought this up in the past, but i would like to know what exactly GGG is trying to achieve with racing? what is the reason for some of this stuff not being addressed? even if they have philosophical differences on what racing should be i would rather hear that and go OK this is how it's going to be than hear nothing.

-HeaT

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i dont think i said it was the only thing, i just dont think that is something that should have priority when in the scale of things, it's not on the top of factors that seriously affect runs (for reasons i have already said). personally i think MS/2 QS right now is the most pressing issues in terms of RNG.

You certainly didn't say, but how you said "it's also even worse to me that this argument is being made in regards to stats which you can guarantee 100% mitigate through the skill tree, when in fact we should be looking at things like MS and Quicksilvers which is an rng factor that cannot be mitigated." sure does make it look like. And (for atleast the signature race) it's not even the pack-to-pack time, it's the actual mob & box RNG in NF that makes the difference. Go watch Raiz's new scion record where he had 3 blue boxes in a row and made a huuuge comeback.

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there were other discussions before on the forums with some racers who really thought this (stats/dex amulet etc) was important, and they made it seem like it was do or die, didn't really mean to aim this criticism directly at you karv. also, im glad you brought all these things up in podcast i hope it is a catalyst for GGG to do something.

Well, it is part of the do or die, since you need it to level up your gems. Speccing out of way for 2 points just to be able to level up your gems is a no-go in the context where I brought the issue, competitive racing & record making (not world, sig).

Criticism is something everyone should be able to handle, I didn't get offended. Just felt you misunderstood my point.

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"ALL NEEDED for the top of the top scores" <--- see again it comes down to "top scores" and records, people who compete professionally dont come out in their particular sport/event and think it's all or nothing, world record balls to the wall YOLO or nothing, only 1 strategy is going to work type shit. you generally want to win in that given instance regardless of record or not. (winning is different than setting records) i think this issue is exacerbated by the way the point structure works imo.

I played floorball in the highest possible level nationally in Finland for 6 years (juniors) and winning a game with bad play, we sure got our asses kicked, hard. Anyways, I don't think it's a good to compare these things since it's 2 completely different things in a way (singular games = singular races, but singular races have a chance at giving a whole season containing price.)

As for what comes to "you generally want to win in that given instance regardless of record or not." is actually completely false for me and some other people. I gave away my demigod from the latest signature race which I won as a shadow with less than 2m exp. I play to improve myself and do the best runs, not win singular races. For me, winning is improving my own run and setting a record. I "win" by being better in the signature records, not singular races. This is why we have dozens of signature races, to "nullify" some of the RNG this game has. This is not true for party races, where I play for just winning the competiting party, or if none present, then to improve my own and team play.

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one more thing, i think karv you said it on the podcast and i think mors has brought this up in the past, but i would like to know what exactly GGG is trying to achieve with racing? what is the reason for some of this stuff not being addressed? even if they have philosophical differences on what racing should be i would rather hear that and go OK this is how it's going to be than hear nothing.

-HeaT

Yeah that is part of the #1 issue which is lack of interaction / communication. We don't know what they want. Even though "Racing feedback" section has flavor text that mentions discussion about competitive racing.

If you still havent, take a read on my latest thread https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1425421