[outdated] Caustic Arrow Solo Map MFer (20/300+)

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Serleth wrote:

I'm guessing that it won't continue to be reduced by more than 42% past level 20, otherwise even with the new support gem and tree options it'd be pointless to play it.

Alright I'm going to watch a couple tv shows then I get into the math but expectation is that with at least one of either Void Manipulation or Rapid Decay, it'll end up being fine.

Well with a 42% reduction you need to add almost double the added damage that you had previously just to break even. So the new tree need to supply more, which it doesn't (your old build is 320% damage and your new one is 380% damage) and the new support gems need to add that much more over the existing support gems.

So those new support gems need to add double the damage that slower projectiles, concentrated effect, increased AoE or empower adds and I don't see it doing that. It won't even be close.

did someone sketch dps for new chaos skill?

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mezmery wrote:

did someone sketch dps for new chaos skill?

No one will have real numbers until it is released and someone can check their leveled gems.

I'm sure a few guesses will end up here soon enough though.

Okay, so this is an extremely rough estimate with quick math but

2.0 tooltip: about 29k damage (with 7 frenzy, golem)
2.0 actual damage: roughly 48k

2.1 tooltip: about 18.5-19k damage (with frenzy & golem)
2.1 actual: about 30-31k

Assuming void manipulation scales identically like slower proj with 10% increased damage on quality and 29% MORE damage on base at level 20

2.1 actual (swapping AoE gem for Void Manipulation): ~ 34-36k dps

So even with the gem change and getting rid of AoE, we stand to lose about 14k dps in a finished build.

KEEP IN MIND, this is completely guess-work and unknowable until the patch actually goes live.

The long and the short of it is that this build will be fine for regular mapping and even 78-80 maps, and regular Atziri, but it's probably dead for Uber Atziri and 81+ maps.

Who knows. Those are my preliminary thoughts anyway. Regardless, I'm confident in this build still being strong for MFing and mid to low-high tier maps. Regardless, I will continue to investigate this and other options.

REGULAR Poison Arrow, however, will be completely fine. So for those of you looking to run PA in a non-MF spec, you're good to go, because you will also get the advantage of being able to run Rapid Decay as your 6L, and just dropping the AoE gem.

Because we want to run IIR though, the only way to do is successfully and keep the damage comparable in the MF setup is to sacrifice a shitload on gear, including replacing the rare gloves with Aurseize, to get back up to 300% IIR before the IIR gem, but then the whole point of the build (aka, survivable, good damage, good MF combination) becomes pointless, since you'll always be at like... max, 4k life.

Also, keep in mind

* I haven't factored in Wither, which should operate much like Vulnerability and provide a multiplicative damage boost. We just don't know how that functions yet.
* This also does not account for the fact that the other support gems (Rapid Decay, Void Manipulation) might actually scale more powerfully than Slower Projectiles
* This assumes the 42% reduction is static past gem level 20. It might be more, it might be less.

I see, thanks for the quick thoughts!

If this nerf only being rather harsh on top-tier content (Uber, T14/15) we might actually see a decrease in popularity if streamers are not running CA for that race to Uber / T14 and 15 clears.

Please, keep in mind we get another 'chaos damage taken' multiplier akin to Vulnerability. It's not in the 5L/6L in our bow, it's with the all-new Wither skill. I will use it in Spell Totem - Faster Casting - Wither (Totem Life/AoE) in a 3L or 4L, depending on what will be easier to execute for really tough enemies.

If we assume Wither has the same values as Vuln (33% more), we regain a lot from the difference in DPS (30k + 10k = 40k, roughly).

Concerning the Aurseize / IIR debate: hum.. what a dilemma :S

please dont use pierce anymore.. its increased damage which there will be enough on the tree now and jewels, i.e. slower, empower, conc, rapid decay and void manipulation will be the best setup

This build doesn't use Pierce to begin with.

Drillneck + Piercing Shots + Poacher's Aim (for utility more than damage) = 75% damage for four points.

Still worthwhile.

Nevermind that this is an MF build so IIR needs to be in there somewhere, that means out of your suggested setup, Rapid Decay has no room.

Even then, dropping Inc. AoE is a significant reduction in clear speed. Not really willing to do that unless the DPS is absolutely terrible.

We'll have to see when the patch goes live exactly how it scales past level 20, and go from there.

As an aside, as I generally love the DoT style of play, I'm considering doing something like an EK or Blade Vortex / Blade Fall + Poison build.

I think Blade Vortex has a lot of potential depending on the duration and power of the skill to basically DoT the shit out of everything in an LL RF setup, especially with RF now getting a 60% radius increase.


Back on topic, in light of the possibility of needing to drop the AoE gem in order to compensate for the damage nerf, I present a Scion variation that takes advantage of the Scion-start AoE nodes and paths up into witch.

Ultimately this means less increased damage off the tree, but it permits getting a "more" multiplier gem instead.

Scion AoE Sketch

177% projectile damage
40% area damage
25% increased AoE
74% chaos damage
169% DoT
145 flat life
145% increased life
23% all resist
5 jewel sockets

Pre-jewels, this amounts to a net increased damage of 460%, compared to Sketch #4's 380%, and -2% life.

However, with up to 2 less jewel sockets it amounts to about -12% life and assuming at least two 10% damage rolls on each missing jewel, this basically means that the damage difference (base increased) is more like +40% on the Scion tree.

The other keys are that it's missing two Frenzy charges and any sort of other defense (can't take Acrobatics) and cannot take Piercing Shots, meaning Drillneck isn't an option (another -65%), so the total INCREASED damage difference is more like -25% on the Scion Tree, and -8% MORE damage from the two missing Frenzy charges.

Where it makes up for it is an extra support gem option: Void Manipulation. Which presumably would have an additional 29% more damage.

Translation: tooltip damage about 15-16k, actual damage about 30k.

So, this damage ends up being roughly equivalent to what we get out of the 2.1 Ranger Tree (assuming we keep the AoE gem), but allows us to grab 25% increased Area of Effect. This means we'll still have -14% area of effect compared to WITH the AoE gem.


I post this mostly as interest, because I know I'll be getting questions about the possibility of running this concept.

The TL;DR is that we lose a bit of AoE coverage and life in favour of retaining the same damage, getting 23% all resist and compensating for the loss of life by getting a higher flat-life quiver with resistances, to make gearing even easier to run Carcass Jack.

Again, just for point of interest for anybody who was considering it.

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Serleth wrote:

As an aside, as I generally love the DoT style of play, I'm considering doing something like an EK or Blade Vortex / Blade Fall + Poison build.

I think Blade Vortex has a lot of potential depending on the duration and power of the skill to basically DoT the shit out of everything in an LL RF setup, especially with RF now getting a 60% radius increase.

an alternative MF RF build doable then?