Season 2 Open (high-level) PVP Feedback

As we are about to have the Open Swiss events, so I thought may be a good time to solicit feedback on Open PVP.

We are also looking at what to do with Open in the next season, so indicating what you want to see from Open PVP in the future would be useful!

As with the last specific feedback thread, here is a rough summary of our current assessment:

Explosive Arrow is very problematic at mid- to high-tier play, and while the saturation drops off a little at high-tier play, probably not enough.

Flameblast is looking very strong due to its large zoning and high damage potential and also probably needs to be looked at.

Melee isn't as common as we'd like at high-tier play. We think Molten Shell and Tempest Shield's high damage is a contributing factor here.

In general, 1v1 in high-level is extraordinarily difficult to balance due to the broad and varied builds available. It can often become a rock-paper-scissors game. 3 v 3 events maintain the variety, but seem to be presenting a much more stable, and fun, meta-game. We are very seriously considering putting more of our focus for Open level play in Season 3 on 3v3 than on 1v1 events.

I will probably elaborate this post. But for the moment I'd like to say:

3v3 Open is where the fun is at. I only started HLDing because 3v3 adds additional teamwork & positioning skill as well as team synergy, to counter balance gear disparity. I was dissapointed at the low quantity of 3v3s for Open and the lack of any 3v3 NoParty for HLD (am i blind or is there 0?)

3v3 is actually possible to balance whereas 1v1 is extremely difficult.

Will update this post once I get everything typed and formatted. Also want to play the Swiss before posting.

rsrved for my post tomorrow

Explosive Arrows is a really, really strong build for its cost. It does high damage and is really fast and mobile with brightbeak + eclipse offhand. They'll provide with high ratio of ice shot coh ele weakness+other curses if so desire. The maplayout favours, with alot of obstacles to stack their arrows on and have alot of escapepoints, EA alot since one of the biggest problem with it is wallspamming. Not only does it give them pretty much an anti-melee setup, but alot of them just won't move and as soon as they're taking a bit too much damage they'll leap away.

Suggestion
The wallspamming, make it a %chance to hit the wall or that it has a chance to hit the bower themself, which would force them to stand a bit longer from their obstacle which would make it atleast possible for melee to get in close. Could also make it so it drains more mana the longer you use it, and most EA's are blood magic which will over time start to drain your life. This would not affect PvE since how many EA's are standing spamming arrows for seconds without moving once.

Traps
CC was nerfed to half the duration of 5 seconds to 2.5seconds which will give them a .5seconds downtime when theyre at max traps since there's a 3seconds cooldown which makes them suffer alot. However while this is not the biggest problem it still should be given a slight buff to 3seconds, or even 3.5seconds so you're not vulnerable without able to do anything. But the worst problem is that traps have 0% elemental resist and 1hp. This is a hugh problem with the Herald of ash buff. If someone destroys your trap, and you're close to them you'll most likely die way too fast to be able to notice and is just to me broken.

Mines
While they suffer the same thing as traps, they still do an insane ammount of damage. It's insane how much it can do and I've tried it both on a ranger and caster, and pretty much any skill and a bit knowledge of what combinations goes with which you got a solid 1hit possible mine. I'd like to see a %less damage on it and possibly in HLD, make the max ammount 3 instead of 5 since with 5 mines in one place you're most likely to be oneshotted.

Molten shell
Been a problem for over a year and a half and still is. It's so antimelee it's just not fun at all. You are at a high risk being oneshot by it as a melee, and also finally people realizing it in LLD too, however it'd need a greater nerf in HLD than LLD. Just spam it and as long as it's up you'll stand close to your enemy, and as it expires you warp away and just recast it to reengage the battle.

Different invalid ways of how to counter from random people
*Spectral throw. Not that great and as mentioned they'll just recast it
*Lightning strike. Not only hard to aim with, it leaps the same risk as spectral, it'll just be recasted
*Offhand bow switch. Tried it and done pretty well with it, however what stops them from just keep recasting once again?

This in my opinion concludes the main issue, the ability to massively spam it over and over again. Also, the damage should be nerfed since it's way too high.

Tempest shield
Was indirectly nerfed 1.3 due to block chance nerf which means it will proc. less frequently. However atleast I gained more average damage which will instead do more damage each time you block. This combined with molten shell again, gives you a high chance of winning vs most melees without even moving or using any other attack.

CWDT
One of the biggest issues you can encounter as melee. It has the high potential to deal 75-100% of a 9,000hp+ build without an issue. This is a hugh problem, but not only will one spell trigger, people can stack up to 4 or even 5 if they so desire and it'll for sure oneshot you then. Also it allows to more lazy playstyle, using cwdt curses and IC/EC without any effort. Since it was intrudced I've never found a really good reason why it should be avaible in PvP at all.

CwS
Read cwdt

Freezing pulse
Insane shotgun damage and 1hit potential in melee range. Does really well in 1v1's and most builds will have a trouble with the high damage it has. Lower the damage by a significant ammount.

Arc
Pretty bad spell for 1v1s and is completely fine in those scenarios. It shines in 3v3's though if you play smart, you'll be able to chain it on the whole opposite team and it will do an insane damage.

Elemental penetration and damage
Will post this here http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1204440. Elemental penetration is insane since it just ignore your overcap and takes from the max resist.


Don't balance on the torment/bloodlines swiss events when balancing
As Hege mention it is not just new, but most people are not dedicated HLDers and just want their fun and points. Look at the real top, what is the real top HLD?

Poison Arrow
A skill I don't understand at all why people struggle with it. It's not just easy to avoid the clouds, a high chaos resist will hardcounter it. Don't cry because you cannot always use your jewellery, have 2 mings in your invetory and adapt. Chaos resistance in PvP is more important than people expect, and this is a great example of why not balancing based on Tor/Bl since most people are unexperienced and don't know what to cap and how to counter, therefor PA being a hugh threat.

Even with top gear it does pretty shit damage vs decent chaos resistance+regen. Possibly intruduce a way to penetrate chaos resistance, maybe on the skill itself or on vulnerability? It should not be as high as the elemental penetration supports, but maybe more like 20% chaos penetration, and even then it would not compete among the top.

Will add more with time

1st. For GGG+GD and some peoples who think 1vs1 hard to balance and 3vs3 is more balance in future, wtf POE pvp dont need balance 1vs1 or class vs class balance,its not MMORPG its not MOBA,POE as action RPG got in pvp so many nuances(like items in set, gems in set,lvl, map nods and on the top of this gems mechanics+nods mechanics itc.)U simply cant do balance on class vs class, and that is why we need balance of some OP blocks(like elem. penetration or elem. equilibrium synergy)
2d. Some on balance:
A.Its my n post about penetration gems and mechanics in game, PLZ look at this. This is 1st step to balance on Molten Shell/and all CWDT reflect , Expl Arrow and some more elemental non blocked things, this is why 1shotting (or 2hits kills)exist.
A->B.From Penetration we come to Elemental Equilibrium. Its soo simple way to make Brutal dmg, do minus resists on enemy.(75% res on target -36%(21lvl pen gem)-2%(nod)-3%(nod)=34% and then do double curse EE+any curse of ur main attack skill).
about A and B. GGG run around gems all the time , nerf this on 10% , up this on 5%, trying to balance and i think we need to see skills gems problem from angle of Penetration mechanics.
C. GGG need to re pvp arenas. Too many walls , small arenas, corners and so on.
D. About Cyclone and Molten str on mele attacks. Some peoples think about top dmg of this skills, non stun cyclone or stun MS hits, no no no . Not this is most power of this skills. Its simple target ability of this skills, its AOE of this skills.Show me plz 1target skills on pvp plz(Tornado conusAOE,Fris Pulse AOE,PA AOE,EA AOE,Fire skills any AOE, Traps hmm Multi traps so its AOE too). GGG need to look at this gems not from nerfing dmg but at rebalance 1 target gems more (may be up a bit radius of weapons or may be radius of gems)
D->E frost walls spam, cyclone and Molten is better here too.
I can post here more , but i dont wanna repost good threads about imm call+ec cwdt vs phys dmg , about traps and so on (all this u can read here in PVP Feedback). Thx and sorry for my english.

"

Qarl wrote:

Explosive Arrow is very problematic at mid- to high-tier play, and while the saturation drops off a little at high-tier play, probably not enough.

Flameblast is looking very strong due to its large zoning and high damage potential and also probably needs to be looked at.

Melee isn't as common as we'd like at high-tier play. We think Molten Shell and Tempest Shield's high damage is a contributing factor here.

In general, 1v1 in high-level is extraordinarily difficult to balance due to the broad and varied builds available. It can often become a rock-paper-scissors game. 3 v 3 events maintain the variety, but seem to be presenting a much more stable, and fun, meta-game. We are very seriously considering putting more of our focus for Open level play in Season 3 on 3v3 than on 1v1 events.

EA - Its main problem are the maps. The docks being the most favored one of them all. not only does have plenty of options for escapes, but you can literally throw arrows into the ground from the high ground leaving not only walls but the floor as exploding area. EA does a lot for very little investment. Its beatable, but you're at the mercy of the maps that you get. Having wider terrain without so many pillars or narrow hallways would put EA more in line. Concavities play a huge roll at surface area and pillars do also.

Melee - in the current state of the game, need to almost always bring a ranged option otherwise they're setting themselves up for failure against top players. The frustrations become well "i'm a melee so I shouldn't have to bring a bow" Well you're a melee who is trying to punish your opponent when you can for hiding in nooks or walls. Punish your opponents with explosive arrows with the correct gem setup. And use RoA to detrap. Comes down to ingenuity and not being lazy.

Also GGG changing the way viper strike works (off physical) completely changed the way melee's were able to deal with heavy block/dodge/aurora builds



HLD is about thinking outside the box, managing which items you bring in your inventory and then actually executing those swaps on hand.

I'm really sad to see more focus on 3v3 than 1v1.
Currently The optimal setup to run in 3v3 is Flame Blast, EA, Poison Arrow/Remote miner. 3 zoning characters that pretty much punish anybody who makes it out of their base.

1v1 is much more balanced than GGG can siphon from the swiss/blitz events. Its because we were given 5 days notice of the merger that people like me were unprepared in HLD to deal with a lot of character weaknesses. I had invested nearly all my time in gearing 2 equally geared LLD characters for both leagues when I could ahve been focusing on 1 HLD and 1 LLD in the same league. So my HLD character is half assed big time.

Minion instability blink/mirror arrow is an easy fix that is probably atm one of the most gimmicky mechanics. All you need to do is that any replicate mirror/blink arrow minions start at 100% health instead of low life as per archer.

Hege's List of Suggested changes to make HLD more fun:
1. Traps go back to 3sec CC. 2.5s is not enough to deal with herald of ash/proliferations
2. Traps have 1 hp, 75% all resistances. Thus preventing some of the outrageous instagib proliferations that we see in 3v3 and 1v1.
3. Nerf Molten Shell
4. Nerf Tempest shield damage output or apply "cannot shock with this skill"
5. Don't look at the HLD swiss events that were just debuted. This is horrible data to analyze the current state of HLD. there are those who prepared that are doing well, and those that know what they're doing but didnt have the time to get ready (ie. ggg's late announcement). There were only 50ish participants which I would only credit 3-4 that i would actually accredit what HLD is (despite their low ratings/scores).
6. Buff EK a lil
7. Change the way mirror/blink arrow work to spawn at 100% health instead of player's current health.

In the scope of things, at the highest levels of pvp, a lot matches are ending up in draws. There are people that are just straight tanky, that a lot of people even with godly gear cannot kill because of their tankiness. There are people 8.5k hp tanks, there are 1600+ Es/s regen users. Nerfing damage even more will net more draws this game has ever seen.

When you guys look at participation I ask you guys to consider:
The lack of communication to the players that there would be an insane amount of high level events this season. I for one invested all my time and energy on where it would pay off the most which I was assuming LLD in both leagues. Then I was shocked at the qty of HL events there were planned. My expectations were way off here in my plans.
lack of communication to the players about cross league matching
The lack luster rewards overall in everything compared to season 1. (lack of karma coin, swiss prizes, same demi, and arguably the least desired alternate arts the game has ever seen).


I understand that there is a growing hatred for PvP and events, and its hard to justify more resources being spent whether it be art/programming/testing/balancing. And not being the experts at it can give you guys a lot of reservations when trying to detect bias vs legitimate feedback.

The HLD has nearly unanimously voiced a lot of changes that are just "broken" for years now. It would be nice to consult the experts so we can get the changes needed into the game before I fear PvP just dies.

It's no doubt that HLD requires hard work and lots of tinkering/theorycrafting. It's content of it's own that people wont ever acknowledge/recognize. the vast majority of people want to just log in and compete at the highest levels and put no effort in. It's sad to say, but the community has drawn more towards handouts and away from innovation. The thinkers, testers, doers are dying off and it's all about shortcuts. I realize more and more I am such a small minority when it comes to this community.

"It is obvious that we can no more explain a passion to a person who has never experienced it than we can explain light to the blind." -T. S. Eliot

My feedback in post above, will keep update it

+1 to Hege's post.

Exactly the way I feel. I have WAY more fun with HLD 1v1 than I do with any other PvP mode. We don't need more 3v3s we need more 1v1.

"

Poison Arrow
A skill I don't understand at all why people struggle with it. It's not just easy to avoid the clouds, a high chaos resist will hardcounter it. Don't cry because you cannot always use your jewellery, have 2 mings in your invetory and adapt. Chaos resistance in PvP is more important than people expect, and this is a great example of why not balancing based on Tor/Bl since most people are unexperienced and don't know what to cap and how to counter, therefor PA being a hugh threat.

Even with top gear it does pretty shit damage vs decent chaos resistance+regen. Possibly intruduce a way to penetrate chaos resistance, maybe on the skill itself or on vulnerability? It should not be as high as the elemental penetration supports, but maybe more like 20% chaos penetration, and even then it would not compete among the top.

chaos penetration shouldn't be the answer as it will kill ci builds outright. Right now they are 100% resistant to chaos but with chaos penetration the slightest amount will kill them.

I have a 5.5k (lvl 25 pa. On sc it can get to 28) dot poison arrow char that can defeat some of the higher ranked people (that havent capped chaos res) on the sc-hc ladder during the first round. After that they do a couple of swaps and some I cant even damage through their life regen. I agree that it is strong if people are not prepared for it but getting enough chaos resistance almost completely shuts down the build as long as you have a gap closer.

also there is ci, in which case you either need a bow swap with a different ability or at best can draw out 9 rounds for a draw :/


@TheProffesor There are no poison arrow characters in the top of the ladder for a reason.