[ LLD ] Firestorm build op or not ?

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Fightgarr wrote:

If Firestorm so broken why is only the great and powerful FARBLAR winning with it? I have not been impressed with a single other Firestormer I have played against, and there are a few.

Have you tried wearing a Chayula vs these guys? No, you havent, because you are hopelessly addicted to your Elreon jewelery. AREN'T YOU????? YES. YOU ARE.

(For the record, I am too)

Molten shell, on the other hand...

fightgarr so on point. I rek firstorm with crit daggers shadow and 2h sword duelist. Many people arent even playing against firestorm or disfarblars build properly at all. They dont wear any antifreeze, poor useage of smoke mine, and just run yolo into traps or try to facetank dps race him. I watch many of his matches since I am not participating yet this season. Many people come close to beating him but get outplayed by his smoke mine useage.

Also agree with fightgarr, molten shell OP in combination of everything else. +3 so strong.

you're right grind, i think it's more about molten shell than anything. Firestorm pretty much guarantees a burning opponent which is 25% more MS dmg. If you chayula the firestorm you're at a low lifepool to get wreck by shell. If you do not - gl surviving the gauntlet. I think that shell should be nerfed before considering damaging anyone's core build.

I'd still maintain that Firestorm needs a nerf. I never said how much, but I'd put it around 5-10%. It easily stacks and has huge area control with q20 Increased Duration and Potency of Will. Firestorm, Cold Snap, Bear Trap, Molten Shell...everything lasts longer. I really get the feeling most of these Firestormers are just building improperly; Dsfar is the only one with the right idea. Regardless, it's difficult for basically every build to fight it, and Molten Shell isn't required to beat all the other builds aside from melee. We can't forget how much utility Firestorm brings to the table; it destroys traps in a huge area, stuns, and easily triggers Celestial Punishment passive due to the frequency of ignite possibilities. I don't find a small damage nerf to Firestorm disagreeable at all.

I really dont think it's the firestorm itself that is causing the problems. Brainamputation has a similar build to the firestorm and he is also dominating swisses. Both builds have +3 fire pen molten shell with 300% increased damage in common. Any caster build with molten is bound to do decent against half of the opponents (melees) and the ones that can fight archers (firestorm) can get close to unbeatable.

I would also like to note that smoke mine is winning waggle and brain the matches molten shell doesnt win, against melees that is. Without smoke mine the build would be sooooo much worse. The blind it provides is absurdly strong.

The damage of the firestorm itself isnt that great and it has a huge delay to actually get going. Really feel like we shouldnt touch that particular skill for now. Waggle showed us in a blitz that even flamesurge can work as long as u have +3 molten.

If anything deserves a nerf here it really is the molten. As a comparison +3 fire pen molten can do like 600 dmg on a duelist with 0% increased fire dmg. Go figure what the numbers look like with a caster oriented char.

Dsfar is only firestorm bulid that is done properly and you cant tell that if you beat other firestormer than it isnt that hard at all(although i can feel other ones are catching up to him and soon we might have few firestormers that rocks everything else). Thing is vs dsfar you need to be stunimmune and freeze immune(or really high life for freeze low duration). Vs meeles problem isnt in firestorm itself but in molten shell that can oneshot anyone and has no cooldown at all.

So firestorm + bear traps + cold snap + molten shell combo provides:
-stun to everyone whos not stun immune
-if he freeze you = youre dead in 70% of cases (or you need flask ;) )
-destroying traps
-amazing field control vs any bulid that doesnt use whirling blades//leap slam(if youre bear trapped as bowman you got one blink = still youre dead)
-molten shell 2 shotting most meeles

And on top of that many firestormers dont use temp chains on hit(dsfar ofc use it ;) ) which is imo biggest mistake you can do as firestormer.

Even though all these points i still feel thet its possible to make bulid that counter him it just req ridicoulous gear and focusing on his bulid only :)

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kuan999 wrote:

Dsfar is only firestorm bulid that is done properly and you cant tell that if you beat other firestormer than it isnt that hard at all(although i can feel other ones are catching up to him and soon we might have few firestormers that rocks everything else). Thing is vs dsfar you need to be stunimmune and freeze immune(or really high life for freeze low duration). Vs meeles problem isnt in firestorm itself but in molten shell that can oneshot anyone and has no cooldown at all.

So firestorm + bear traps + cold snap + molten shell combo provides:
-stun to everyone whos not stun immune
-if he freeze you = youre dead in 70% of cases (or you need flask ;) )
-destroying traps
-amazing field control vs any bulid that doesnt use whirling blades//leap slam(if youre bear trapped as bowman you got one blink = still youre dead)
-molten shell 2 shotting most meeles

And on top of that many firestormers dont use temp chains on hit(dsfar ofc use it ;) ) which is imo biggest mistake you can do as firestormer.

Even though all these points i still feel thet its possible to make bulid that counter him it just req ridicoulous gear and focusing on his bulid only :)

The main problem is its tough to gear towards one build and crippling yourself against most others. Blitz events make this almost impossible as the response time has to be insane.

With that said the guy plays awesome. Give him credit. Nothing he has is a one shot mechanic.

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Atlas305 wrote:

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kuan999 wrote:

Dsfar is only firestorm bulid that is done properly and you cant tell that if you beat other firestormer than it isnt that hard at all(although i can feel other ones are catching up to him and soon we might have few firestormers that rocks everything else). Thing is vs dsfar you need to be stunimmune and freeze immune(or really high life for freeze low duration). Vs meeles problem isnt in firestorm itself but in molten shell that can oneshot anyone and has no cooldown at all.

So firestorm + bear traps + cold snap + molten shell combo provides:
-stun to everyone whos not stun immune
-if he freeze you = youre dead in 70% of cases (or you need flask ;) )
-destroying traps
-amazing field control vs any bulid that doesnt use whirling blades//leap slam(if youre bear trapped as bowman you got one blink = still youre dead)
-molten shell 2 shotting most meeles

And on top of that many firestormers dont use temp chains on hit(dsfar ofc use it ;) ) which is imo biggest mistake you can do as firestormer.

Even though all these points i still feel thet its possible to make bulid that counter him it just req ridicoulous gear and focusing on his bulid only :)

The main problem is its tough to gear towards one build and crippling yourself against most others. Blitz events make this almost impossible as the response time has to be insane.

With that said the guy plays awesome. Give him credit. Nothing he has is a one shot mechanic.

That's the thing when it comes to melee compared to bow/caster. Casters and bow can generally play most match ups on 1 universal set up. Melee has to adapt and swap gear quite often to deal with what caster and bow just do naturally...traps/heavy penetrated multi elemental dmg. People don't consider these things but they need to.

Is Firestorm broken, nah. Guy found a solid synergy to make it work. He's utilizing a lot of options and fucking with his opponents options at the same time. That's just playing smart, if he was 1 button 1 shot killing ppl then id question the legitimacy of the skill. Also like mentioned already by grindcore and others, ppl aren't using the right items. I watched a bit of these matches on stream. The amount of people just letting themselves get frozen,stunned,running around while punctured, not flasking was hilarious.

http://www.twitch.tv/grindcorethrall/manager/a628066873/highlight

Disfarblar vs SuperFreshsushiboy : 12 Minute Marker
Disfarblar vs Roshak : 24 minute Marker
Disfarblar vs Hauntworld : 36 minute marker
Disfarblar vs Hegemony : 49 minute 25 seconds marker.

I streamed and did some lazy commentating on the swiss Tournament saturday US 6:00pm PST. Spectating queue has to be initiated after every area change so I missed one of the matches (apparently was over quite quickly, was the 2nd match). I caught every other match, the link above is to the stream which has been unedited. I dont want anyone to think its been manipulated but there is some parts of me farming cruel mudflats or spectating helmans matches.

What I have to say about the video is pretty simple.

Almost every single person I watched disfarblar play against didnt de-trap. On top of this, no one used dream frags or any freeze immunity besides maybe 1 flask. Disfarblar is playing top LvLlvl with his caster from what I have seen. He even goes against another under geared firestorm and beats him easily 4-0. I think if many people had the same gear as disfarblar they wouldnt play the build as well. Hes smoke mining at perfect times, detrapping constantly with firestorm, throwing traps himself, Molten shell constantly vs melee, and landing like every cold snap. I dont think hes winning just because hes playing well, I will explain.

In the video he goes against haunted(duelist-melee), Lord(shadow trapper), Hegemony(ranger-bow/trapper), SuperFreshsushiboy(templar-caster) and a couple others not really worth mentioning besides the under geared firestormer maybe.

Hauntworld had a really good chance at beating disfarblar and almost did it. He didnt really detrap, didnt have freeze immunity, didnt use any range skills at all, he really just yoloed in on disfarblar every single time hitting traps, getting stunned, and he never even looked for the enemy smoke mine. Haunted also didnt have enough warding flasks or didnt space them out well enough because the last few rounds he was constantly temp chained. I think this happened because he never poked or actually tried trapping disfarblar(I know he would smoke mine anyways). He needs to implement a ranged ability.

Roshak used a ranger puncture/trapper build. Didnt use enough movement skills, often hit traps, had no freeze immunity, no stun immunity, and apparently not enough warding flasks or not good enough management.

SuperFreshSushiboy had what seemed like a decent chance. Pretty similar caster in some ways but seemed as if he went more defensive. He was using a shield, definitely sacrificing some spell damage in favor of what ever stats or corrupted slot he was going after. This imo is a horrible sacrifice against another caster unless he had high spell block (spell block is hard to pull off so usually not worth it). Its not a mirror match but seemed like disfarblar just played better. Superfreshsushiboy kept allowing himself to be trapped into corners. He didnt utilize smoke mine nearly as well as Disfarblar. Superfreshsushiboy could absolutely win if he was better practiced and versed in the matchup.

Hegemony was playing a puncture build mixed with traps(puncture). Ok so this fight was intense. It was a battle of movement skills and smokemines. Mirror arrow/blink arrow/clone arrow or w/e constantly. I feel like smoke mine is the most powerful relocating skill and the bow skills just dont nearly match its ability to break stun lock chains. Hegemony played really aggressive blink shotting in on disfarblar. Disfarblar would insta smoke mine out as hege tried throwing traps on him. This was repeated over and over. Hege was dealing huge damage and nearly kills disfarblar many times but just couldnt get an angle on disfarblar when he had many traps and spells stacking in the space between them. I think Hegemony eventually gives up and knows he messed up early on or just decides he doesnt have a chance, because he aggressively moves in and starts facetank dps racing disfarblar. The fight does not seem imbalanced, its just a battle of patience and who can use their movement abilities better. Disfarblars smoke mines are perfect so really no match.


When its all said and done I think the answer is not to nerf firestorm but the answer lies in nerfing smoke mine because thats whats giving his build a huge advantage. Disfarblar just uses it so well, please pay attention when watching and I think u will agree. Maybe add a small cast time that allows interruption more often when trying to recall the mine? Anyone have any ideas?

you came up with nerf smoke mine... smh.

So many Firestormers now. I wonder if we should buff it?