ok that was bound to happen

"

kuan999 wrote:

You might wear it in smart words but if you shorten that what left is: "I deserve better, and all these op geared nolifes shouldnt be so impossible to beat, GGG plz do sth that will shorten gear gap beetwen me and them."

no, Kuan.

what I'm saying is rather this: "if I'm not an OP-geared no-life, I should meet as few OP-geared no-lifes in PvP as possible, as rarely as possible, unless I managed to beat some of them which increased my rating enough to get pushed into their tier".

and let's face it, if I queue-in with a blue/leveling-gear character built for casual low-level PvP, my chances of beating that 130pDPS Wander with a Tabula Rasa - packed full with 20 Q corrupted gems - who can one-shot me off-screen, or that insane melee with crazy A3M-grade armour and shield who can tank anything I throw at him, then knock my lights out with a perfect Legacy Facebreaker - are nil.
I won't beat any of them given the above starting condition, no matter how "git gud" I get, in terms of skill.
and I won't get a fair, enjoyable match-up from facing any of them, nor will they get one from facing me.

therefore yes, GGG please improve the match-making system.
and yes GGG, please define limits to the kind of gear a level 28 character in LLD can have.
there will always be OP-geared, trading no-lifes who are equipped better than others - but "better" doesn't mean "ridiculous", so please take your fkn insane Elreon-crafted, multiple-Exalt Wand, right into higher PvP tiers: Sarn Arena. HLD. random "challenge-from-town" matches ...

and if your claim of a small player base for LLD is correct, you have to ask yourself "why?".
the answer, is in the paragraphs above.

HLD in Standard provided me with fkn awesome matches that ended in draws, or were won and lost on the last round, and fought for long minutes of pure Adrenaline.
if you are telling me I need an "entry wealth" of a dozen Exalts to have a shot at getting the same, in LLD in a temp league - no thanks.
enjoy your 19-people queue. 20 minus me, that is.

"

johnKeys wrote:

if you're telling me I cannot currently achieve that unless I have a couple stacks-o-Exalts to throw at an LLD char - that's saying "stick to PvE" to someone who knows and enjoys a well-set-PvP.
and I will, sadly. because I don't. one less guy in your queue.

They don't need you! They have complete roster of 30 participants psshh

oh and they stream too!!! RAD

"

johnKeys wrote:

and if your claim of a small player base for LLD is correct, you have to ask yourself "why?".
the answer, is in the paragraphs above.

Im not saying its correct im saying how it is now.
And the answer why it is so is combination of overall small player base(especially now when 60% peoples ends playing till new leagues) and high reqirement in terms of dedication.

To make good pvp char you need to put much amount of time into trade, testing, maybe leveling alt accs with elreons.
But guess what - the same thing is about PvE and you dont ask for equal chance to kill atziri or uber atziri as players who spend tons of time to do that - explain me where is the difference?
And if you permanently refuse to spend that time, currency and your knowledge(yes its really important in terms of cheaper gearing) and only thing you do is demanding for "equal" ground then dont be suprised your posts meet so much negativity in PvP subforum.
GL in pve and come back to pvp when you decide that kicking other player ass is worth that dedictaion ;)

its a vicious circle though.

Since there is a small base only the toughest survive.
Its hard for new players to come in because they get discouraged very quickly.
The player base remains small and super competitive.

repeat


I don't know what must happen for the pvp population to become big enough for people to saturate the pvp que so that everyone is satisfied and new players dont get demolished in 3 sec and discouraged from ever trying it again

there is already a predominantly negative attitude towards PvP because god forbid that 2 out of the many developers dont spend their time working towards act 4 or fixing desync, as if everyone can do that

Yup i agree its closed circle.
Some solutions have been proposed and i most like solution around making premade chars much better (imo it should be about 70% of 5 t1 items).
Also step in good direction imo, regardless of its really late announce is making season pvp combined beetween leagues(dont like though hld between leagues like hc and std).

"

kuan999 wrote:

To make good pvp char you need to put much amount of time into trade, testing, maybe leveling alt accs with elreons.
But guess what - the same thing is about PvE and you dont ask for equal chance to kill atziri or uber atziri as players who spend tons of time to do that - explain me where is the difference?
And if you permanently refuse to spend that time, currency and your knowledge(yes its really important in terms of cheaper gearing) and only thing you do is demanding for "equal" ground then dont be suprised your posts meet so much negativity in PvP subforum.
GL in pve and come back to pvp when you decide that kicking other player ass is worth that dedictaion ;)

There's a couple of big differences between PvP and Atziri:

First is player activity. It benefits everybody if PvP had a large participation-base. You get shorter queue times, more variety of builds and gear levels, and the matchmaking algorithm is more effective at ensuring you're matched against opponents of equal level. Atziri runs are kind of the opposite, the ideal environment for Atziri runners is one where they are one of the few people who actively participate since they can fetch better prices for the Atziri-only uniques and maps. So in one case having a large gearwall to progress is a positive thing because it grants you a more exclusive market, and in the other case having a large gearwall only reduces player participation which makes the whole experience worse.

The other issue is that PvE and Atziri are mutually inclusive, while PvE and PvP are for the most part exclusive. i.e. if you gear for Atziri, you're geared for mapping and other PvE activities. If you're geared for PvE you can generally modify your build to be geared for Atziri fairly easily. With PvP on the other hand, you have to go out of your way to gear for it and in many cases, the only market you have for your gear is going to be other PvPers. To put it another way, in the crawl from levels 60-85, you can progressively "finish" your build, and many of the items you're using can be used in an Atziri-capable build. With PvP however, the only thing you're making progress toward is the exalts needed to gear up. And once you trade those exalts in for PvP gear, you're going to have to sell it back into the market if you wanted some PvE gear instead (as opposed to simply swapping items from your Atziri character to your mapping character).



But for me the bottom line is, if PvP isn't made more accessible it's not going to go anywhere. And people who think it needs to have this gigantic gearwall in order to enjoy it have to also accept that this comes with 20-minute queue times and getting matched against the same characters and builds with no fresh blood.

Atziri i took rather as example its same about gearing for high lvl maps or dominus farming.

"

gilrad wrote:

It benefits everybody if PvP had a large participation-base.

100% true but its also true in terms of players base in pve(more particippants in economy).

"

gilrad wrote:

Atziri runs are kind of the opposite, the ideal environment for Atziri runners is one where they are one of the few people who actively participate since they can fetch better prices for the Atziri-only uniques and maps.

Its defintely ideal for these who can farm her but in terms of healthy and good economy overall for sure it isnt.

In hc temp leagues, there is almost always only few who farm Atziri for long time and they becomes rich really fast. The thing is noone or almost noone calims that they dont "deserve" it and "I should be one of them". Why? Becaouse its OBVIOUS for everyone you wont be able to do atziri without dedication to game. Somehow players who accept that and are amongs best in pve(whatever you call it high lvl mapping, doing atziri or fast dominus farm) cant stand that being among best in pvp req dedication(and omfg currency) also.

"

gilrad wrote:

But for me the bottom line is, if PvP isn't made more accessible it's not going to go anywhere. And people who think it needs to have this gigantic gearwall in order to enjoy it have to also accept that this comes with 20-minute queue times and getting matched against the same characters and builds with no fresh blood.

Telling that pvp has some "gigantic gearwall" is just not true at all. It does req sth but with elreon multimod you can EAISILY gear up char for 30 ex top. I didnt have shit before 1.3 beside few legacies on HC(which i didnt even use later) and not a single item on STD and somehow i manage to get 1st EU points place in season one.
Also steps in terms of making "gigantic gearwall" smaller had to be really catious cos even when we make 70% perf premandes it will bring "I deserve more" guys. And that kind of guys dont bring anything good in any community neither pvp or pve.
Just look what happen around achivements, when someone actually made sth awesome, time and knowledge requiring.
1. Havoc 1st lvl 100
-nolife
-map buying, jsp, rmt, gtfo
-carring no dps bulid
2.Baker 1st HC 100
-dual spark shitbulid
3.Havoc 1st 100 at HC temp league
-exploit summon bulid gtfo
-nolife
4.Havoc first kill atziri in hc league(awesome race with willywonka and mors)
-aegis "skill" bulid
and probably many many more i dont remember.
My point is i dont think any of guys with this attitude will bring anything good into pvp and giving them more pvp access wont change anything :).
And dont get me wrong i want pvp community grows but not at cost of making everyones gear equal or near equal. Good solution though would be adding new lld uniques to game.
1h sword example:
I got 170pdps sword in torment which took me much time and currency to craft so maybe add some 140pDps unique or even better premade only unique.
tldr:
-poe pvp is gear based and if you want to get "equal" ground there are 100 better moba games(and free of desync!)
-pvp gearing is much easier than it seems actually
-players with attitude "I deserve more" would bring to pvp more bad than good

The 20-30ex figure I see various people throw around is still a pretty big gear wall, especially when you need more people doing PvP than other similarly-priced activities like Atziri runs or 77 map grinding to 100.

I mean sure it's attainable for many players (myself included if you really must know), but nowhere near the number needed for a healthy PvP playerbase.

"

gilrad wrote:

The 20-30ex figure I see various people throw around is still a pretty big gear wall, especially when you need more people doing PvP than other similarly-priced activities like Atziri runs or 77 map grinding to 100.

I mean sure it's attainable for many players (myself included if you really must know), but nowhere near the number needed for a healthy PvP playerbase.

I'd put that number to 10-15 ex now.

"

gilrad wrote:

Spoiler

There's a couple of big differences between PvP and Atziri:

First is player activity. It benefits everybody if PvP had a large participation-base. You get shorter queue times, more variety of builds and gear levels, and the matchmaking algorithm is more effective at ensuring you're matched against opponents of equal level. Atziri runs are kind of the opposite, the ideal environment for Atziri runners is one where they are one of the few people who actively participate since they can fetch better prices for the Atziri-only uniques and maps. So in one case having a large gearwall to progress is a positive thing because it grants you a more exclusive market, and in the other case having a large gearwall only reduces player participation which makes the whole experience worse.

The other issue is that PvE and Atziri are mutually inclusive, while PvE and PvP are for the most part exclusive. i.e. if you gear for Atziri, you're geared for mapping and other PvE activities. If you're geared for PvE you can generally modify your build to be geared for Atziri fairly easily. With PvP on the other hand, you have to go out of your way to gear for it and in many cases, the only market you have for your gear is going to be other PvPers. To put it another way, in the crawl from levels 60-85, you can progressively "finish" your build, and many of the items you're using can be used in an Atziri-capable build. With PvP however, the only thing you're making progress toward is the exalts needed to gear up. And once you trade those exalts in for PvP gear, you're going to have to sell it back into the market if you wanted some PvE gear instead (as opposed to simply swapping items from your Atziri character to your mapping character).

But for me the bottom line is, if PvP isn't made more accessible it's not going to go anywhere. And people who think it needs to have this gigantic gearwall in order to enjoy it have to also accept that this comes with 20-minute queue times and getting matched against the same characters and builds with no fresh blood.

yes.

also, I can take my PvE characters and actually do HLD with them, at least in Standard.
how many "Exalts" worth of gear does my Marauder have? I don't know. it's 2 years worth of mostly self-found gear, but surely less than the numbers you guys are throwing around here.

am I "dueling elite" using a so-so-geared, primarily PvE character in high level PvP? of course not.
there are pros, no-lifers, and super-rich who are all better at it and/or better-geared than me. but there are also enough people who are like me: none-of-the-above. and facing these people provides me most of the kind of matches, that make me enjoy PvP so much: closely-matched. fast-paced. Adrenaline-pumping.

it's ironic really, that LLD is where I hit the "gear or GTFO" wall. the part of PvP where your gear is technically limited, and your character level and build options are limited - is where apparently you need a "heap of Exalts" PvP build, to even stand a change.
and when I say "stand a chance", I don't mean compete with LordSidro and co' for 1st place.
I mean queue-up for a series of casual, fun, fast-paced, evenly-matched battles, which are - to me - the very essence of doing PvP, for the purpose of enjoying PvP.

you guys disagree, and want to keep your competitive "closed clique".
you don't want "filthy, poor casuals" like myself here, and somehow believe having me in your queue will ruin your experience.
I somewhat understand, and therefore am not offended by your responses (for the most part).
have fun.