How does everyone feel about the new rewards / points required?

Competitive in this context means to minimize the rng as much as possible. Ideally the person playing the best will always win the race. Basicaly the opposite of a race like endless ledge (drops can decide who wins the race totally disegarding playerskill,straight lineish layout gives no advantage to people who bother learning the layouts inregular races)

So the sentiment here seems to be (and correct me if I'm wrong...) that races with a lot of RNG aren't also dominated by the same handful of people. Anyone care to parse the data to see if that's an accurate picture?

When I did endless ledge races, I almost always saw the same few people succeeding in EL, DC, and other RNGish races as much as the other, more vanilla types.

I'd also argue that DC is, perhaps, the least RNG-ridden race you could ask for. Everyone starts with the same gems and gear. The choices are always the same. The rewards for those choices are the same.

Worried about maphacking? Reveal the map. Simple.

It seems to me that everyone is far too concerned with protecting the most hardcore racers among us. That, without strict GGG intervention, they simply will not be able to compete and be the best at what they do.

Do they need to be treated like an endangered species in order to thrive?

"

I feel like you're scared that the pendulum might swing too far in the other direction, but don't know exactly what the other direction looks like, or what the ramifications would be.

You even correctly identified the criterion yourself. The more variance (RNG), the less competitive the race (generally speaking).

"

I'm not sure how you made that jump yourself. The races that were removed were somehow more casual? I'm not seeing the logic here.

Even so, that's no reason to remove them, not even by the criteria I gave earlier.

"

Unless by plagued by, you mean there are a handful of. In which case, I agree. There is no evidence that even a single-digit percentage of racers are cheating. In fact, many of the best racers stream, and did not use cheats at all.

Which might have something to do with the fact that the two most common races (2h fixed seed, endless ledge) aren't particularly good for cheating, ever thought about that?

It's easy to comment on things "after the fact" when some measures are already in place to make cheating less profitable, the fact that cheating in this season (especially in sigs) seems like less of an issue than in some of the earlier seasons is a good thing, a GOOD thing.

"

It has more relevancy than you think. Many people complained that the high variance of DC races was benefitting cheaters far more than in any other race. Solution? The blandest possible race, with fixed seed.

Which is a dumb solution. They could have just as easily made Descent: Champions fixed seed.

And what's with the false dichotomy?

As though the only two possible options are "fixed seed" and "removal of the race".

They could have just made Descent: Champions a regular race... I'm serious why do people in this community (and the developers too.. more importantly) have this weird tendency to jump from one extreme to the other?

"

Antnee wrote:

So the sentiment here seems to be (and correct me if I'm wrong...) that races with a lot of RNG aren't also dominated by the same handful of people. Anyone care to parse the data to see if that's an accurate picture?

When I did endless ledge races, I almost always saw the same few people succeeding in EL, DC, and other RNGish races as much as the other, more vanilla types.

I'd also argue that DC is, perhaps, the least RNG-ridden race you could ask for. Everyone starts with the same gems and gear. The choices are always the same. The rewards for those choices are the same.

Worried about maphacking? Reveal the map. Simple.

It seems to me that everyone is far too concerned with protecting the most hardcore racers among us. That, without strict GGG intervention, they simply will not be able to compete and be the best at what they do.

Do they need to be treated like an endangered species in order to thrive?

No and you are again jumping to an unecessary extreme. Don't you agree that it would be silly (and pretty much defeat the whole point of racing) if someone could get incredibly lucky with a drop and subsequently beat someone who is significantly better than them?

As for Endless Ledge, there is a crap load of variance and bullshit in that race, sure if good players survive they are most likely to win (though why this should be probabilistic as opposed to a binary pass and fail-test I don't have the faintest idea), but the emphasis is on IF. Boof is probably the best ranger player by a landslide, but so far he died in most of the ELs. I think he managed to win 3 ELs so far this season (pretty much all the ones he survived in), despite being worlds ahead of everyone else.

Through no fault of his own, it's just variance. We want good players to be rewarded for their efforts and skill and not have to depend on luck in order to have even a chance at beating significantly worse opponents.

"

SlixSC wrote:

Which might have something to do with the fact that the two most common races (2h fixed seed, endless ledge) aren't particularly good for cheating, ever thought about that?

It's easy to comment on things "after the fact" when some measures are already in place to make cheating less profitable, the fact that cheating in this season (especially in sigs) seems like less of an issue than in some of the earlier seasons is a good thing, a GOOD thing.

It's less of an issue because it's a ghost town. This is NOT a good thing.

"

SlixSC wrote:

They could have just made Descent: Champions a regular race... I'm serious why do people in this community (and the developers too.. more importantly) have this weird tendency to jump from one extreme to the other?

I think you misunderstood me. I also feel that removing the race entirely and replacing it with 2hr fixed seed was a harsh, hamfisted way of balancing around cheating.

"

SlixSC wrote:

No and you are again jumping to an unecessary extreme. Don't you agree that it would be silly (and pretty much defeat the whole point of racing) if someone could get incredibly lucky with a drop and subsequently beat someone who is significantly better than them?

Through no fault of his own, it's just variance. We want good players to be rewarded for their efforts and skill and not have to depend on luck in order to have even a chance at beating significantly worse opponents.

I think we're hitting close to your real problem with racing. And, sorry to say, you will never get what you want. RNG is always going to be a factor, and the more measures are taken to reduce it, the blander (thus, more empty) the race seasons will be.

THIS is the problem. This is where the experiment has failed. People screamed for less RNG (less perceived advantage to be gained from cheating) in races, and that's exactly what they got.

We can argue specifics all day and all night, but the core of the issue is that balancing races with cheating/RNG in mind was and is a terrible mistake.

"

Antnee wrote:

So the sentiment here seems to be (and correct me if I'm wrong...) that races with a lot of RNG aren't also dominated by the same handful of people. Anyone care to parse the data to see if that's an accurate picture?

When I did endless ledge races, I almost always saw the same few people succeeding in EL, DC, and other RNGish races as much as the other, more vanilla types.

I'd also argue that DC is, perhaps, the least RNG-ridden race you could ask for. Everyone starts with the same gems and gear. The choices are always the same. The rewards for those choices are the same.

Worried about maphacking? Reveal the map. Simple.

It seems to me that everyone is far too concerned with protecting the most hardcore racers among us. That, without strict GGG intervention, they simply will not be able to compete and be the best at what they do.

Do they need to be treated like an endangered species in order to thrive?

Over a certain period of time the RNG naturally balances out and given average RNG the top racers will more often than not win the races regardless. Assuming there are a few invested racers per class at least one of them will get average to above average RNG and likely win the race.

Now I am far from being a top racer but from my understanding the people who are serious about racing enter a race to a)Win it and b)Compete against other dedicated racers.

Now let's take an EL race for example. We have A and B who both love racing, are practicing strategies and are often contenders for demis.

A gets a Medium Life drop at lvl 4 as well as a Large Life at lvl 14. B is stuck with Small Lifes until lvl 16. B has now automatically lost the race and is somewhere around 2-5 levels behind A (depending if he's playing caster or melee). While this might seem quite hypothetical it is actually not that uncommon and has happened to me personally as well as several other people.

Similarly A could get Zombies and Skeletons in 90% of his Zones while B primarily gets Arcers and Dischargers starting from Zone 2.

This makes the race pretty much a pointless waste of time for such ppl.

Now while revealing the map takes away from the advantage of a cheater (still not eliminating it since they can see all the bluepacks) it also takes away an integral part of racing skill (knowing the layouts)

Concering the point of balancing around hardcore racers I do indeed believe (and this is purely my opinion) that they should be the main focal point of balancing. For one they actually have the most insight and knowledge about racing and can thus give indepth and constructive feedback. On the other hand they are also the ones most affected by any balance or other changes to the races. The player who races every now and then will most likely not care what the Signature Race is or if its fixed seed or not. He will do those types of races he enjoys and have his fun with it.

"

Antnee wrote:

It's less of an issue because it's a ghost town. This is NOT a good thing.

Correlation does not imply causation.

"

I think you misunderstood me. I also feel that removing the race entirely and replacing it with 2hr fixed seed was a harsh, hamfisted way of balancing around cheating.

But it wasn't removed because of cheating, that's where you are wrong. I don't know where you got that idea from, but it's nonsense. If that were the case god knows why there are still 12 minute burst races, which are significantly more cheater-friendly than any other type of race. Cheating had nothing to do with that particular decision, or if it did, GGG are acting in a way that is incoherent.

"

I think we're hitting close to your real problem with racing. And, sorry to say, you will never get what you want. RNG is always going to be a factor, and the more measures are taken to reduce it, the blander (thus, more empty) the race seasons will be.

THIS is the problem. This is where the experiment has failed. People screamed for less RNG (less perceived advantage to be gained from cheating) in races, and that's exactly what they got.

We can argue specifics all day and all night, but the core of the issue is that balancing races with cheating/RNG in mind was and is a terrible mistake.

You can balance around cheating by making the races fixed seed (if that is really the ultimate goal). This applies to ALL races, Descent:Champions, Descent, normal races, etc... At no point is the correct solution to cheating a total removal of a specific race format.

That is clearly a non-sequitur and it blows my mind that you still don't realize this.

"

inyoureyes wrote:

Concering the point of balancing around hardcore racers I do indeed believe (and this is purely my opinion) that they should be the main focal point of balancing...

...The player who races every now and then will most likely not care what the Signature Race is or if its fixed seed or not. He will do those types of races he enjoys and have his fun with it.

This is where you are wrong. The casual racer has left this season in droves.

"

SlixSC wrote:

That is clearly a non-sequitur and it blows my mind that you still don't realize this.

I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see the clear path from previous race feedback to where we are now, this is a pointless conversation.

"

Antnee wrote:

"

inyoureyes wrote:

Concering the point of balancing around hardcore racers I do indeed believe (and this is purely my opinion) that they should be the main focal point of balancing...

...The player who races every now and then will most likely not care what the Signature Race is or if its fixed seed or not. He will do those types of races he enjoys and have his fun with it.

This is where you are wrong. The casual racer has left this season in droves.

Yes, because two of the more popular races got removed, not because the signature is a 2h fixed seed. That's what I'm trying to explain to you.

What difference does it make to anyone if DC is demoted from being a signature race to a regular race? To most people there is no qualitative difference there at all, as long as the quantity remains roughly the same. It's just semantics.

Removing the race on the other hand is not just "semantics", that's actually a noticeable qualitative change.

"

Antnee wrote:

"

SlixSC wrote:

That is clearly a non-sequitur and it blows my mind that you still don't realize this.

I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see the clear path from previous race feedback to where we are now, this is a pointless conversation.

I don't remember people complaining about cheating in D:C, the most common complaints were about the swords and duration of the race. Cite me some evidence maybe?

If complaints about cheating are really the reason the race got removed it should be trivially easy for you to link me to a sea of posts crying about cheaters in that particular race.

I'm pretty sure you will find yourself disappointed though.

By your own standards it's not D:C that should have been removed but 12 minute burst races.

Curiously enough 12 min burst races are still around. How can that be? If this is all about cheating how the hell did the most cheater-friendly race in existence manage to not get removed? It must be a conspiracy!

"

Antnee wrote:

Worried about maphacking? Reveal the map. Simple.

Not so simple.

Monster pack size variance in a theoretical perfect non-cheater scenario means everyone will get roughly equivalent EXP given the player's propensity to miss packs. So in theory, the skilled player will be able to make on-the-fly assessments on killing packs and progression setting him or herself apart from the rest of the racers.

With the more prevalent cheats as of god-knows-how-long, the cheater is able to see where every single pack is, their sizes, whether they're blue or rare, if any exiles are near by or not and the cheat will warn them about it.

So if the cheater has minimal racing experience, he/she will just beeline for these packs ensuring optimal experience at all points in the race. I don't think you understand just how big a difference this makes in EXP yield.

The top racers are only managing to break even because these cheaters are also shitty players and they lose a lot of time on things that experienced racers need not second guess. If any of our seasoned boys here were to cheat, you would most certainly see EXP far beyond anything anyone has ever accrued.


More importantly, why does the fucking server give the client data for the ENTIRE map instead of a limited range around the player?

Better yet, just integrate the monster spawns into the minimap. Boom, even playing field.