Trivializing content/bosses is a huge problem and you're playing it down, Mark.

https://youtu.be/P2-BLJQCeWo?t=5261

I'm very glad Ziggy D asked them that question, because it goes to show what their thought process is on this.

"

Honestly I would say my experience at this point with understanding how to gear my character and build my build at that point you know sometimes it's honestly 8 seconds and sometimes it's 20 seconds and it's like is it ever really more than that and then you're like and then you get that with all of our obviously a lot of our designers play and a bunch of people and then you go and You look at the stats and you're like, "Oh, it's 119 seconds average. That's 2 minutes. That's what we intended for it to be." And so the average across every and that's the average, which means there's some people taking 4 minutes and whatnot.

And so it's actually like, oh, that okay, the numbers are not as bad.

And yeah, it turns out if you know what you're doing and you are good and you play a lot, uh, you you kind of kill things quickly.

Um, I know a lot of people might be like, ah, you should have that be flatter because what the hell? An 8-second fight's not necessarily fun, right? you're not engaging with any mechanics and stuff.

And some people are like, "No, if you're that powerful, you're that powerful. And if you know what you're doing, have it be that fast." Right? So, it's a bit of um thing where some people want the way less um variance between character power, but also then that feeds into the endgame of yeah, you want characters that feel like gods among gods among gods, right? Like you you can do that, but it is again just comes back to who you know, do you have item X, item Y, item Z of different kinds. So when things are too cheaply OP as in almost free and I don't mean economically, I mean like as in you just your general time to earn. Um generally that has to come down. Um and I think that really is the message overall of like you know if it cost you a lot then yeah you can be a god. If it didn't cost you very much maybe that's going to be something that we wouldn't consider nerfing.

Mark is saying that if you know what you're doing and you are good and you play a lot you will kill things quickly. But is that really true? How much of it is true?

Alright, I'll do a little self evaluation because all my experiences were as he described, under 8 second kills for all bosses I've encountered. Let's take them one by one:

"if you know what you're doing"

How much did I really need to know? The knowledge I've applied to my choices were as follows:

1) What has the highest damage multiplier as a skill?
2) The more More multipliers you can get the more damage you deal
3) Tested out skills as I got them and decided based on how they performed and felt.
4) + level of gems

This is the general framework I've worked by, with a bit of variance but overall, that's what my thought process was.

"and you are good"

Am I really that good for those 4 points I've made earlier? Is my thought process really all that genius there? I don't think so, honestly.

"and you play a lot"

I most definitely didn't play a lot, I haven't touched any of the chase items... didn't even try to. Nothing that would warrant "became a god" status.

So then, did I really deserve to vaporize bosses before I could even see what their script was? Absolutely not. Not even close. And as Jonathan keeps trying to say... first time encounters with bosses should take more akin to that average Mark mentions of 2 minutes they supposedly get. but I didn't get that at all. On multiple builds of my own making that weren't even particularly special or all that smart.

The only time I ever got similar times to what they've mentioned there was in Act 1 of update 0.1. And I've had the same knowledge then too.

"Um, I know a lot of people might be like, ah, you should have that be flatter because what the hell? An 8-second fight's not necessarily fun, right? you're not engaging with any mechanics and stuff."

Yes, Mark, the gaps between these experiences is extreme and you should totally have them be flatter. I'm not even talking about 150+ hour ultra farmers here with the best in slot gear... that's not where the real problem is.

Was it fun for you to kill all bosses in less then 20 seconds? Was it fun when you didn't engage with any mechanics? Didn't you guys make them so we could engage with them? What purpose do they serve otherwise... just to kill the most casual gamers?

"So when things are too cheaply OP as in almost free and I don't mean economically, I mean like as in you just your general time to earn. Um generally that has to come down."

Yes, a large majority are cheaply OP and don't require large time investments. It's the way you designed the systems that make it so... the more multipliers, the + levels on gems and so on. It's like a cheat code for people that are mildly awake. You don't need to be a genius.

I'm sure all of you reading this don't consider me a genius for those 4 points I've mentioned I follow as an untold rule, so then... when Mark says they look at those average times and it looks good to them... who are they evaluating there? The most casual gamers that don't even read skill descriptions and put whatever drops on the ground on them? Wasn't D4 supposed to be the game that's more for the casual audience? Why are they using this average time as a guide for balancing the game?

In my opinion, they are using the data they have completely wrong. Especially for balancing purposes.

But there's a really interesting part to this too. If they are following these averages.... well... things will change drastically soon. After this next update, build guides will be easily available to everyone, with far less friction then before. Even some of the most casual gamers will be able to access at the very least the base of my 4 rules there, and even more.

I do wonder... how will numbers change in this league?

Depending on how obvious the option is in game (they did say it's a bit hidden, hopefully not too hidden) I'm more then certain the average time will drop significantly. No doubts about it.

Edit:

Jonathan also said this:

"People often judge things by watching streamers who are often playing something that's completely cracked and out of control. And so people don't get an understanding of what the average player is actually experiencing."

Aside from the fact that this is a poor excuse by itself and it mirrors some really poor replies people give in here on the forums (and probably reddit) to invalidate the issues we raise with the gameplay... then how come even in your own videos you promote the exact same things?

Are those builds really completely cracked outliers that only streamers experience after ridiculous 150+ farming times? No, not even close. That's basically the experience for almost everything starting early in campaign with no serious investment.

https://youtu.be/cOZJcWgntiM?t=259
https://youtu.be/cOZJcWgntiM?t=290
https://youtu.be/cOZJcWgntiM?t=333
https://youtu.be/cOZJcWgntiM?t=356
https://youtu.be/86MS6GHBAOg?t=237

I think they are not into the balancing phase fully yet.
It's one of the last steps in the development cycle usually.
They apply some bandaids, but i'd expect actual balancing not sooner than 1.0.

"

Evergrey#7535 wrote:

I think they are not into the balancing phase fully yet.
It's one of the last steps in the development cycle usually.
They apply some bandaids, but i'd expect actual balancing not sooner than 1.0.

it's not about balance or numbers tweaking. It's already in a way progression works. Too many multipliers: (weapon damage multiplied by weapon speed) multiplied by increases multiplied by muliplier multiplied by +levels multiplied by crits...
And when its fine to have different ways to accure power, some of those are already established as core (weapons +200% local phys is by itself 3x damage) and already broken by itself. And having +skills all around also.

I would call itemization is the most broken part of the game, affixes too strong compared to blank bases. Or compared to any other power sources (sopports/tree/attributes)

"

vzmNitie#2139 wrote:

"

Evergrey#7535 wrote:

I think they are not into the balancing phase fully yet.
It's one of the last steps in the development cycle usually.
They apply some bandaids, but i'd expect actual balancing not sooner than 1.0.

it's not about balance or numbers tweaking. It's already in a way progression works. Too many multipliers: (weapon damage multiplied by weapon speed) multiplied by increases multiplied by muliplier multiplied by +levels multiplied by crits...
And when its fine to have different ways to accure power, some of those are already established as core (weapons +200% local phys is by itself 3x damage) and already broken by itself. And having +skills all around also.

I would call itemization is the most broken part of the game, affixes too strong compared to blank bases. Or compared to any other power sources (sopports/tree/attributes)

So you don't want balancing or what?
If whole itemization is broken in your eyes, you seem to want another game brother.
I agree that some aspects of scalings are out of hand (crit), but Poe is supposed to be complicated af and many people enjoy such.
When balancing comes, we will see how it shapes.

"

Evergrey#7535 wrote:

I think they are not into the balancing phase fully yet.
It's one of the last steps in the development cycle usually.
They apply some bandaids, but i'd expect actual balancing not sooner than 1.0.

While that is possible, my main issue here is the way Mark talks about the problem and the way he approaches it and the data. Based on that and everything that's happened so far along the patches, let's just say I don't have a lot of faith in those balance changes.

Take for example this part:

"People might be like, ah, you should have that be flatter because what the hell? An 8-second fight's not necessarily fun, right? you're not engaging with any mechanics and stuff. And some people are like, "No, if you're that powerful, you're that powerful. And if you know what you're doing, have it be that fast." Right?"

What do you mean by some people are saying this, some people are saying that... how does any of this matter when you are designing bosses with scripts that we're supposed to experience??? What are you even designing them for then? Are you just listening to everyone and don't follow a design goal yourself?

If you're making bosses with mechanics meant to be experienced, then obviously fights can't end in 8 seconds like that on first tries and/or with very low investment... even if you "know what you're doing"... otherwise what purpose do they serve? Just to say that you did so it looks cool on a presentation? It shouldn't matter what X or Y says in this case...

I hope this time, they've at least increased the number of employees in that balancing team to a much more respectable number then before...

I agree that they're analyzing the data in a completely wrong way, the gap between 8 seconds to 4 minutes and more is just way too big, especially because damage scaling has already been solved like you mentioned

You stack +skill, take some increased damage nodes, focus on getting as many "more damage" modifiers as you can, stack flat dmg and possibly convert them to something else, then you apply shock..

There's just an illusion of choice, damage wise everything has been solved already

The challenge in poe 2 is like 90% formulas and 10% mechanical skill, this is basically what poe 1 is

This would not be a problem if one or several of the following were fixed...

1. Understanding the game is not being balanced for just you. Understanding there are players who are trying to play this with no knowledge about the game and not following a tutorial. So in summary, the dev is giving you the average times. If you are faster than that then you are playing meta builds, broken builds, or are min maxing much more than the vast majority, you know what you are doing.

2. Remove +levels from the game. It is a cancer stat. It is "required" and weapons without it are mostly viewed as useless. If the stat was removed, base damages could be buffed and tweaked to make them better instead of this is crap unless it is a level 30+ skill. Also, they could fix the mana issues and not make everyone play blood magic. This is been so obvious a fix since launch yet they refused to do it. Leave +levels to be on uniques only. Gives them more value by doing this but not making it a requirement.

3. Improve defenses that aren't blue. Give people the ability to make a godly tank character if they choose to by sacrificing damage as it should be. Glass cannon is one extreme, unkillable tank is the other. Both should exist. If you don't want to do this then ES needs nerfed massively and enemy damage needs nerfed massively.

If they actually do #2 and #3, the game can actually be balanced in a realistic manner instead of this throw numbers at the wall and see what sticks approach they have had since launch. #1 needs to happen if they want to keep the "balance" where it is now. If you think its too easy, challenge yourself. If you think its too hard, play more and look up guides. If you are in the middle, keep having fun. Remember, and tweaks to boss difficulty means whatever direction you go, the opposite group of players suffers. If you make it too hard, you lose the newer and more casual player. If its too easy (any skill and build any gear beats everything) then you have the 12hr a day crowd upset. At the moment, it is actually in the middle IMO. Still think #2 and #3 are the best route for them to take.

I mean the jist of his point is that on average for an average player the bosses are where they want them largely. And better players can trivialise them. Which as best I understand a lot of the older poe players want to be able to do.

I would rather have them be more challenging but isn't that what an uber variant is for? Campaign bosses do feel more like paper since we have more currency etc now than before so I'd like that to see some change. Idk maybe they can add a campaign difficulty that tweaks boss hp to be beefier.

Idk why people are trying to argue against hard data, that's extremely silly.

I do half agree with this though, from a slightly different angle.
Trivialization of content isn't necessarily a problem BUT we are able to get there too fast.
Map tiers are mostly filler.
If you ran a randomly selected map between tier 1-5 would you be able to tell the difference?
5-10?
10-15?
Probably not.
The top end of difficulty should be way higher with more separation between.

Bosses need more difficult tiers. Tier 1 is fine, let people experience the fights without needing to no life the game but we should have some much harder options where an absolutely juiced character needs to spend some time in the fight until they are REALLY truly min-maxed.

These higher difficulties also need to come with better rewards.

"

JODYHiGHR0LLER#6171 wrote:

These higher difficulties also need to come with better rewards.

This part is wrong. Everything else is correct.

If you reward the rich more, the average and poor are going to be influenced negatively even harder.

We just need a content for everyone, but these min-maxed characters don't need market-valuable rewards, as they are already optimized.
The god-tier content should be rewarded with recognition - like ranking and/or cosmetics.

Talking from the pov of minmaxed character.
I would rather compete for ranking than stockpile the wealth at some point.