Casualization worries

Hello, long-time player here.
I just had a long-winded argument for the xth time with a friend who's even more of an "elite Exile" about how Poe 2 is/is-going-to-be bad. Now though, it's because of new features that try to make the game more casual player friendly, which I have no problem with and I have told him that he's b**ching too much about things that don't actually affect the core design or soul of the game (which would leave poe2 as "still complex enough and not dumbed-down), however...

He recently told me about something else I missed during the showcase of all the new stuff you guys at GGG worked on:
Apparently, the atlas tree is going to be fully unlockable.(?) Meaning that every single atlas passive is allocatable with points, thus making sure there is absolutely NO opportunity cost when it comes to endgame/mapping, unless we're looking at the 1 to 3 "choices" we make with the 3 Masters. (and that's per master, when you can only run with one master's effects)

Honestly, I didn't believe him when he told me this, and part of me hopes that this won't be the case when you guys launch 0.5, or at least, for the love of all exiles, not at full 1.0 launch.

THE FEEDBACK:
I guess my feedback or suggestion here is...please don't? I'm not partial to begging but, just know that for a lot of us, even the ones tolerant or even happy with newbie friendly features, removing opportunity costs is not only making it so we don't make any meaningful choices anymore - it is removing or degrading the identity of what this game is to people.
Especially those of us who play it because it's the only trully good arpg with choices, not the illusion of it *cough cough* Diablo 4

EDIT:
Apparently, this will also be true of the passives in the Breach content's Genesis Tree? What's even the point...c'mon guys.

Not only are there the multiple options available for each of the atlas masters, there are also multiple nodes on the atlas tree with multiple options. You also won't be able to allocate the entire tree immediately, so you still have choices to make as you progress in order to determine what would help you the most with your progression.

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Not only are there the multiple options available for each of the atlas masters

Idk what this means. I mentioned that in the OP didn't I? They're good choices but if you don't have other complex choice making (like on the tree), then we're just being given something more on the level of Maven/Exarch/EoW with 5 further sub-selections each as the only real choices. This lack of real choice would be on the level of Diablo 4 rail-roading and casualization.

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You also won't be able to allocate the entire tree immediately, so you still have choices to make as you progress in order to determine what would help you the most with your progression.

While this is true, it is not true enough. What does that mean? It means that once you do complete the atlas, the point allocation does not actually matter in the end. I assure you, many people will get 100/100 points almost in the blink of an eye.
Thus: not a real passive tree, and further: no real opportunity cost.
This is a valid argument to make, and that is an issue.

Idk i feel like poe 2 has a lot of illusion of choice too

Avoid the super conditional stuff in the tree, always prioritize "more dmg" over "increased dmg", always maximize resistances, items always needing a specific set of affixes to be considered good (+skills, movement speed) while avoiding the bad ones (light radius)

Yeah 0.5 is a yuge casualization patch. It makes me sad on a visceral level. Very on-the-rails/themepark.

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Vyend#2601 wrote:

Idk i feel like poe 2 has a lot of illusion of choice too

Avoid the super conditional stuff in the tree, always prioritize "more dmg" over "increased dmg", always maximize resistances, items always needing a specific set of affixes to be considered good (+skills, movement speed) while avoiding the bad ones (light radius)

Well, okay I won't go too into it because it's a bit of a tangent but, on the "inc vs more" and +skill/ms:
Generally "more" modifiers on your build are greater augments to whatever value you're trying to increase, sure. However, we often forget that these two things are supposed to work in tandem. 3 different "more damage" modifiers without a decent %inc pool backing it up is not going to magically make you do the most damage with that skill. The point of these multipliers is to force you to make those choices in the direction of a kind of balance, usually with intuitive math.
The same is true of +skill mods on items, if not more true. You should be making choices as you progg your build on whether the staff with +3 to fire skills is better, or the one with %inc attack/cast speed and higher-damaging explicits. These choices aren't illusory, but they are if you use the term, "choice", in the same way we're supposed to be using it the inherent character/account features like passive(s) selection. (because, obviously, there usually is a most-effective equipment stat combination)

Anyways, tangent out of the way, yea movement speed and avoiding light radius is almost always a must, but what I actually wanted to point out was that idk if we can use the same word, "choice/choose", to describe things having to do with item modifiers, when the issue at hand is a passive tree. Regardless of whether it even is in the same category of player expression.

I mean, just think about it. Hypothetically, let's say tomorrow, you wake up in a new universe where PoE's (either one) passive trees (both character and atlas) were able to be infinitely progressed or finitely progressed to their maximum point allocation....
You know, I don't think I have to continue. Just thinking about being able to allocate all passives on your character's skill tree alone should highlight the crux of the issue, I hope.

lmk if you get the idea so we can all agree at least on this.

Why don't we wait to see what the atlas tree actually offers on the nodes themselves, understand how accessible it is to become 100% unlocked, and just wait until we have a full understanding of how it works beyond the incomplete understanding we extrapolate from an announcement clip before standing up from our game-design armchairs to get our pitchforks and torches.

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theRoyal#6210 wrote:

Apparently, the atlas tree is going to be fully unlockable.(?) Meaning that every single atlas passive is allocatable with points, thus making sure there is absolutely NO opportunity cost when it comes to endgame/mapping, unless we're looking at the 1 to 3 "choices" we make with the 3 Masters. (and that's per master, when you can only run with one master's effects)

My respect for the 36/40. Having 50 points for 300 point tree doesn't exactly translates into a better experience or more complexity, it's just artificial micro managing.

50/50 actually provides a better goal, makes the farming pipeline more streamlined and provides incentive to keep playing.

To me, this translates into a better experience, better onboarding for new players.

Keep in mind all your supporter packs don't fund a game like PoE2, not even pay for the infrastructure excluding production costs. Per industry numbers, not PoE specific, the casuals are still those which bear 65/75% of the revenue. Makes all sense a more streamlined experience.

Yes, top 1% of players already understood a few things on the reveal that are changing and that will have impact on high end farming... That's probably what is upsetting most people... But then again, High end farming means nothing if the bottom tiers of the economy aren't present.

Anyway, thanks for paying so I can keep playing with minimum investment. 🥳

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karsey#2995 wrote:

Why don't we wait to see what the atlas tree actually offers on the nodes themselves, understand how accessible it is to become 100% unlocked, and just wait until we have a full understanding of how it works beyond the incomplete understanding we extrapolate from an announcement clip before standing up from our game-design armchairs to get our pitchforks and torches.

Okay. Or, and just hear me out okay?
Or we just critique what is as-of-now announced and confirmed to the player base?
The only way that "accessibility" to 100% tree completion makes the fact of the matter different, is if getting the final 10 or 20 points is several times (at least twice as much) more difficult than grinding level 99 to 100.
Idk about you, but somehow, I doubt very much that there will be a new, novel, and extreme change like a grinding limiter in place to prevent 100% of the players that make the upper tiers of the league economy, not have all the (available) atlas points within a week of playing. (like every league ever, even in poe1)

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theRoyal#6210 wrote:

"

Not only are there the multiple options available for each of the atlas masters

Idk what this means. I mentioned that in the OP didn't I? They're good choices but if you don't have other complex choice making (like on the tree), then we're just being given something more on the level of Maven/Exarch/EoW with 5 further sub-selections each as the only real choices. This lack of real choice would be on the level of Diablo 4 rail-roading and casualization.

"

You also won't be able to allocate the entire tree immediately, so you still have choices to make as you progress in order to determine what would help you the most with your progression.

While this is true, it is not true enough. What does that mean? It means that once you do complete the atlas, the point allocation does not actually matter in the end. I assure you, many people will get 100/100 points almost in the blink of an eye.
Thus: not a real passive tree, and further: no real opportunity cost.
This is a valid argument to make, and that is an issue.

Hunor me with a question:

Between having a tree worth 300 points and 50 points available, and having a tree with the same options condensed in a 50 point tree with 50 points available, which one would you pick for long term farming?

You fill the tree, you don't have to think anymore on respecs etc... Streamlined to support a stronger farming pipeline.


For long time supporters and experienced people, I do not understand why people can't just trust the developers, at least until the version is released and we can look at it.