The FINAL Solution to +Levels

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Aarius#6495 wrote:

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I understand the idea but unless I am missing something super obvious from skimming through this post, would it not just force builds into taking as many of these as you can almost like jewels are already? Every build would follow the paths to get them on the tree.

Not really honestly. Most builds path through at least 9 of these points minimum regardless. So assuming you corrupt your skills, that's level 21, +9 and you are at 30 already. Assuming they take away +levels from rare weapon affixes, this alone already makes up for that difference. Then keep the +levels on amulets, gloves, off-hands, prisms, corrupts, etc.
Just taking a spell caster for example, 30 base. +3 from amulet, +2 from Off-Hand, +3 from Prism. Now you are at level 38. Only two shy from the cap. More than likely you'd probably be spending some points to path to some crit nodes or something so you probably get the last two form that. OR get lucky with your corrupts. Getting to 40 would be easier and allow players to choose a utility affix or just simply more damage. OR more importantly simply use Unique weapons that actually change how things function. Which is the WHOLE point of Uniques. They are designed to be game changing.

So having the passive tree like this wouldn't be forcing what people would normally do. What is "forced" is what we already have in-game builds are required to have +levels on your weapons, especially for wands.

Right but in your own example with the uniques, you would be forced to take the nodes. Instead they just need to buff the uniques which they are attempting to do in .5 with the runes thing.

Also in the wand builds you are referring to, it only highlights the problem that the +levels is needed in the first place. Balance the skills. Plain and simple.

Builds that can now grab utility instead on gear, sure, but that can be obtained in the tree as well unless there is something very specific you are referring to.

Overall, as long as +levels is in the game and not STRICTLY on SOME uniques then the problem will always exist. This only makes it to where players will take them on the tree over the gear. Same thing happens as a result and nothing has changed IMO.

Just remove +levels and actually balance the base damage/mana cost of all the skills. Most are way too low damage and way too high mana cost.

Can anyone explain why it’s bad? It’s a chase stat that allows gear to be “coveted “ and expensive. Why not take physical damage off weapons? Or attack speed? Or any good stat? I think it needs to be there to maximise damage output on high end builds. I think a better argument is, “should it be balanced in a way where gear doesn’t feel benign without it?” I think that’s the bigger issue

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Leo_NZ#5242 wrote:

Can anyone explain why it’s bad? It’s a chase stat that allows gear to be “coveted “ and expensive. Why not take physical damage off weapons? Or attack speed? Or any good stat? I think it needs to be there to maximise damage output on high end builds. I think a better argument is, “should it be balanced in a way where gear doesn’t feel benign without it?” I think that’s the bigger issue

It is bad IMO because it creates a glass cannon meta of one shot or be one shot. Unless you play ES with at least semi high end gear, you cant survive any hits. Also, the vast majority of the skills in the game need more than lvl 20 damage to actually kill stuff. Without +levels in its current state, there would be even less build diversity than there is now.

+levels needs removed, skills buffed in their base damage, and mana cost reduced significantly

Until that happens, it will always be the priority stat.

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Right but in your own example with the uniques, you would be forced to take the nodes. Instead they just need to buff the uniques which they are attempting to do in .5 with the runes thing.

Also in the wand builds you are referring to, it only highlights the problem that the +levels is needed in the first place. Balance the skills. Plain and simple.

Builds that can now grab utility instead on gear, sure, but that can be obtained in the tree as well unless there is something very specific you are referring to.

Overall, as long as +levels is in the game and not STRICTLY on SOME uniques then the problem will always exist. This only makes it to where players will take them on the tree over the gear. Same thing happens as a result and nothing has changed IMO.

Just remove +levels and actually balance the base damage/mana cost of all the skills. Most are way too low damage and way too high mana cost.

Honestly, I don't know if there is just some kind of mistranslation between us but this "Forced to take" argument you speak of, I don't see what it is that you are claiming, then again I don't know what kind of builds you make personally. Because like I said you are naturally taking a lot of the nodes as is, so there is no forcing being involved. Just by taking the nodes you naturally would have taken anyways in nearly ALL builds known to man right now, you would have quite a few +Levels.

With the patch notes just released I noticed that they didn't mention ANYTHING about nerfing the +Levels on Wands and Staves. So the majority problem still remains with wands and Staves HARD requiring +Levels to have any relevance. Making all Unique "Spell Casting weapons" aside from maybe 2 of them, completely irrelevant to the game.

As for the Utility on gear, most of the uniques in the game either adds to or changes the function of something that already exists. Like the Earthbound staff for example. It gives Lightning Bolt, Spark and it triggers the Spark skill on killing an enemy.
On Death Sparks is an additional function. And I am categorizing that under an additional Utility option gained from a Unique that you otherwise would NEVER EVER use because in order for spells to be relevant, requires +Levels on the weapons. This is the problem.

I would agree that going over every skill in the game and giving a boost in damage would fix the issue overall. I would agree that in addition to reworking all skills, the flat out removal of +Levels would also be fine. It's just a matter of work and time investment. They simply won't do. If GGG prove me wrong and I'll take back those words. But it's highly doubtful.

The suggestion I offer allowing +Levels being in the tree and NOT on rare weapons brings flexibility in how builds can function. That's my whole premise. Uniques that already have +Levels on them are fine in the first place, they were the only Uniques in the game that were designed to be used, clearly. But it would be up to the player to use a Unique that has +Levels or not based on if the skill granted by the Unique OR if the Function provided by the Unique was fun. When it comes to Uniques raw power is not the end point. The fun factor is what comes into play. Yes, there will be some players that only want power and will go for it accordingly. That's their choice.

For me personally, I'd like to be able to have fun with ways to change how build function. I theorycraft all the time, and when the endpoint for what I can do with a build is... I MUST have a rare weapon with +Levels because that's what will give me the MOST value out of a weapon... Well that just kills any potential for any Uniques to be used. If you want I can make a whole list of Unique weapons that could enable new builds if the only way to truly get damage is +Levels on the weapon itself was out of the picture.


TL:DR Having +Levels in the passive tree and not as an affix on rare weapons, gives far more flexibility for builds to thrive versus the alternative. I don't know what kind of "Utility" you were referring to inside the passive tree but what I was referring to was the overall functionality of things that can change with Uniques. The passive tree simply cannot do that. Aside from things like Hollow Palm, CI, Blackflame, and maybe a few others. And as for the Upgrader for Uniques in 0.5... We shall see... Not sure if you even looked at the examples they gave but assuming those are the limits. It's not looking good. Unless if the upgrader allows you to upgrade multiple times or spend more materials to get better results. What they showed for those 4 weapons, simply do not compare to even the worst rolled rares and those are WITHOUT +Levels on them so... I seriously hope what they showed is not the limit. But we shall see.

Or maybe just a +1 or +2 maximum on different pieces of gear, and they don't stack.

Just some random ideas:
- cap it at +2 MAYBE +3 on a god roll so that other stats can be competitive.
- make it specific to ONE spell per affix.
- completely remove it because it is absolutely mandatory and that's fucking boring.

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- completely remove it because it is absolutely mandatory and that's fucking boring.

Exactly, its boring. It's the same as # go up buffing.

If they put a cap on it, they will have to do the math on its value vs the other affixes. It would honestly just be better if they were gone on rares.

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- make it specific to ONE spell per affix.

I actually really like the one singular spell idea though. Would make whatever weapon being used to be hyper specific and focus on that particular skill. But I think the same issue would arise. Not to mention unless if there is ONE build that comes out as the defacto best build to play. Then crafters of said weapon would probably not be making the weapon for said certain skills.

I would leave existing items alone. Changing already-dropped or crafted items is how you turn balance into a small house fire. People built around those items, traded for them, and crafted them under the current rules.

Going forward, there are still ways to reduce the problem without bricking existing gear. Add more sources for +levels so weapons are not the only real answer, or reduce how much power each +level gives so the affix stops dwarfing everything else.

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I would leave existing items alone. Changing already-dropped or crafted items is how you turn balance into a small house fire. People built around those items, traded for them, and crafted them under the current rules.

Going forward, there are still ways to reduce the problem without bricking existing gear. Add more sources for +levels so weapons are not the only real answer, or reduce how much power each +level gives so the affix stops dwarfing everything else.

Well... Yeah, that's my argument. Rares are something you craft. Existing items won't be affected, well they will be affected, because they will actually be used. Sure wands and staves will still have Gain damage as extra but at the very least uniques would have a place for the first time.

+ levels just needs appropriately ratioing, I get that it can feel a bit stale but if you wrote 30% more damage as an item suffix GGG would nerf it in a heartbeat yet they leave +levels because its worded differently.

values need lowering and more desirable affixes need to contest the slot, they don't need to go overboard but right now I feel +2 is as high as anything should get per slot and it probably needs to be kept to say weapon or amulet.