Slow vs Fast Combat - BOTH!

Community wants this and that, but when asked about details, it's just vague bullshit. Both sides.

The truth is, neither of us is able to say what we want from poe2, because:
1) when I get deep into thinking about it, it gets way too complicated and multi-dependent on so many factors i would need to compile it in a table to even glance at the idea of trying to grasp the concept;
2) i want to be satisfied with the game, so I really shouldn't know what to expect from it. You know... to have the fun of exploring, figuring out, overcoming stuff and shit.

Ignoring the above only shows how shallow your take on the subject is.

Yes, difficult campaign feels great. (I personally would love it even harder)
Yes, screen clearing feels great.
And those components will be kept like this, I am sure about that.

When player approaches the God-tier levels, the game becomes boring for some and some seem to enjoy the brainless zooming with no difficulty attached.

So... how can we have all that and satisfy both players?

ISSUE #1 - No God-Tier content
--Something that would be challenging for top-end min-maxed builds, while not breaking the economy.
But we need some reward for the struggle, right? What now?
It is a reward for min-maxed characters, so it does not need to give away market-valuable rewards at all.
--The only thing that fits and comes to my mind would be some sort of recognition reward - so maybe a ranking run of something? Just to be on the scoreboard as a reward, to compete with your build and skill.
Like an infinite tower with bosses getting progressively stronger each floor. Or speed run/clear based content. Fcking Simulacrum but it keeps going... You get the idea.
To spice it up, Top players could be rewarded with cosmetics at the end of the League for example.
Making the prize out-of-market is also keeping participation optional, so zoom-enjoyers do not need to push it to be relevant in economy.

ISSUE #2 - Infinite Player Sustain
--If you keep the infinite player sustain, Boss fight balancing is revolving only around it one-shoting us or not. That is the only actual risk for the player that can be used.
That is promoting glass-cannon builds with full offense, to shorten the fight and therefore lower the risk of failure.
Since you cannot lower the risk of failure by having some mid tier defenses (boss one shots you anyways), there is no possibility of making "meaningful" combat happen.
If they turned off the one-shots from Bosses, there would be no risk of failure, as everyone runs Leech and stuff having infinite sustain.

--Solution or rather a gateway to Balancing possibility would be cutting Player infinite sustain methods.
That would make us more dependent on Potions too.
Boss fights could become more engaging and skillful. Boss mechanics would start to matter. Winning would be more satisfying.
--You would fight the timer of your sustain and skill capability vs your DPS output.
- You could play glass-cannon to have shorter encounter, but you could get pressured down pretty fast if you ignore the mechanics.
- Balanced builds would thrive.
- Tanks could go on the longest and would be the most forgiving, but should fall in the end if having not enough dps.

PS. I am aware of how much work the Issue#2 solution would take, so I am not advocating for it that much. Just showing that it could be approached.

BONUS issue!
ISSUE #3 - Skill Gem scaling
Cap it at 30. Change nothing else. See how the nature is healing.
Why?
Because that way you are not forced to Catch 'Em All.
You can just cap with preferred item slots/other methods.
And cap at 30 lowers the scaling ceiling, which seems to be needed. level 30 is perfectly enough.

ISSUE #2 - Infinite Player Sustain

yeah this. If players can just easily recover back to full HP, only way to kill us is a one shot. This is the first problem they have to figure out if they ever want fights to be really cool and interesting, going back and forth and ending with you on your last sip of potion clutching it out.

bump

"

Evergrey#7535 wrote:

ISSUE #2 - Infinite Player Sustain
--If you keep the infinite player sustain, Boss fight balancing is revolving only around it one-shoting us or not. That is the only actual risk for the player that can be used.
That is promoting glass-cannon builds with full offense, to shorten the fight and therefore lower the risk of failure.
Since you cannot lower the risk of failure by having some mid tier defenses (boss one shots you anyways), there is no possibility of making "meaningful" combat happen.
If they turned off the one-shots from Bosses, there would be no risk of failure, as everyone runs Leech and stuff having infinite sustain.

--Solution or rather a gateway to Balancing possibility would be cutting Player infinite sustain methods.
That would make us more dependent on Potions too.
Boss fights could become more engaging and skillful. Boss mechanics would start to matter. Winning would be more satisfying.
--You would fight the timer of your sustain and skill capability vs your DPS output.
- You could play glass-cannon to have shorter encounter, but you could get pressured down pretty fast if you ignore the mechanics.
- Balanced builds would thrive.
- Tanks could go on the longest and would be the most forgiving, but should fall in the end if having not enough dps.

PS. I am aware of how much work the Issue#2 solution would take, so I am not advocating for it that much. Just showing that it could be approached.

The way flask works also contributes to this issue, you can use flasks even if you're heavy stunned or frozen, you can tank red flash attacks this way too

The devs balance the game around this fact, if you can recover your life/mana that easily, then naturally the only thing that will threat the player are attacks that are above your recovery rate, aka one shots

I'd suggest a tiny delay/animation when using flasks, way faster than any other game on the market, but the game would have to change quite a lot to support something like this, playing on a map with lots of projectiles would feel awful with such a limitation

On vague community arguments:
Agreed. Discussed this in a post I had about Vision. Players feel the contradiction even when they can't articulate it. The problem isn't the players. It's the structure.

On God-tier content / cosmetic rewards
Agreed. Off-market rewards for pinnacle content is the right answer.

Possible God-Tier Content for Level 95-100
PoE is already an infinite loop: it just ends with nothing. Players hit 100 and "quit", return next league, and run it all back again. The loop doesn't need protecting. Someone who hits level 100 isn't the person quitting next league IMO. There is a door to walk through for an actual "God-Tier End Game" experience and it's an actual "end game experience". It could even be a new villain every league (seasonal resolution versus permanent). Anyway, something for the folks that stick it out and grind to the top, they should have an ending worth while (I mean build upon the "ending" they already have which is getting to Level 100 and then restarting).

On infinite sustain
Agreed. Curtailing sustain is required for meaningful combat.

Boink

Instead of looking at the progression, look at gameplay process. If you design fast-paced combat where everything explodes and vomits 5 layers of VFX, you should provide automated 1-2 button builds.

Judging from 0.1, initial poe2 vision was slow-paced action with piano-controlled builds. However, core gitgud 0.5% audience rebelled (big surprise lol), so GGG had no choice but to make endgame overwhelm you with masses of mobs once again, and import more messy poe1 content like abyss. Piano builds and parries stopped working.

Choice was already made: fast combat and 1-skill builds. Any relict of previous vision is irrelevant and will eventually be removed at 0.5% audience insistence:)

You're only allowed to complain about the game being too easy if you play SSF. SSF is where there is still a reward for using multiple skills, stacking defenses and playing slower, because you're not going to clear t15s reliably enough with 1 portal if you try to glass cannon with gear you make yourself.

GGG clearly understand this, and my guess is that the new endgame atlas tree will give us ways to customize the difficulty more so that one playstyle doesn't have to be sacrificed in favor of the others.

"

Echothesis#7320 wrote:

Choice was already made: fast combat and 1-skill builds. Any relict of previous vision is irrelevant and will eventually be removed at 0.5% audience insistence:)

"

Obyrith#7888 wrote:

You're only allowed to complain about the game being too easy if you play SSF.

Hey Guys,

As a SSF HC player from POE1: I initially gravitated to this thought process of "play SSF then if the game is too easy" as well. Actually, I said "SSF HC".

However, after further understanding the request, I take the ask as a more "aware" or "alert" playing style where death is assured through the campaign and every mob is potentially dangerous (especially bosses). So it's not about HC (no deaths allowed) or SSF (limited items): It's an entirely different way to play through the campaign versus the "power gaming" style of POE1.

We don't have to live in extremes where only one side gets their way. Just add a mode (realm) that is 0.1 patch.

Added a visual concept to highlight the idea: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3929047/page/1#p26624932

Boomp