Legacy of Phrecia change for Puppeteer, because of permanent Zombie Builds

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Deadandlivin#2745 wrote:

Seems to me like the design intent of the Puppeteer Zombie wheel here is for it to NOT be played as a Baron build. Which makes sense considering the node you want is a +5 to levels which would be a ~50% more dmg multiplier for Zombie builds which seems kinda overloaded.

I think the intent is that GGG want people to experiment with builds that use their Zombies as corpses and kill them. Especially considering that there's the node Putrid Conscription which leaves a Chaos Dot based on Minion HP on the ground.

Makes me feel like the +5 levels for Zombies wasn't designed to make Baron builds hit harder. But to give massive HP levels to Zombies so they can be used for detonate type builds that are supposed to 1-2 button summon and explode Zombies and deal damage through minion on death effects.

It won't matter which build you play, because of the line: "Your Raised Zombies count as corpses"!
Corpse explosion Mobs & Strongboxes will oneshot every build. If you play permanent Minions, you give them a lot of HP so they survive to do dmg or tank for you, and in explosion builds, you give them even more health to do more dmg.
So this line just makes no sense for any build you do.
In HC for example, you can't even play with this node.

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Axzantos#6012 wrote:

Corpse explosion Mobs & Strongboxes will oneshot every build.

Corpse explosion mobs......don't exist. And don't do strongboxes with the build. Plus, the builds you would be running would be detonating your zombies far faster than ANY corpse explosion mechanic the game throws at you (except strongbox)

There you go.

You realize Zombie Corpse builds have existed for quite a while now right?
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Aukuna%27s_Will

There's also just tons of other corpse builds.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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Axzantos#6012 wrote:

Corpse explosion Mobs & Strongboxes will oneshot every build.

Corpse explosion mobs......don't exist. And don't do strongboxes with the build. Plus, the builds you would be running would be detonating your zombies far faster than ANY corpse explosion mechanic the game throws at you (except strongbox)

There you go.

You realize Zombie Corpse builds have existed for quite a while now right?
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Aukuna%27s_Will

They don't exist, yes sure, whatever you say sir!
I won't go to poedb and link you every single monster that explodes corpses.
Do your research yourself, multiple bosses and exiles use that skill as well.
Again, it only buffs the fallen zombie build and ofcourse the skill itself.
Spectre corspes will always be superior for that style of build, and sure, you can argue that you can make one niche build out of tha., So you have two builds it buffs, vs all other builds that this node will not work with and make it unplayable.
I stay at my original point, that this hurts most builds, and buffs in my opinion only 2.

The rare monster modifier also still exists that explode corpses but you wouldn't use that node on permanent zombies but on builds that summon zombies to explode them directly, much like Detonate Dead builds use Unearth/Desecrate. Those builds run Strongboxes just fine too and don't quit maps just because it rolled certain monster types.

Signed: someone who hit 100 with corpse builds in HC multiple times

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

The rare monster modifier also still exists that explode corpses but you wouldn't use that node on permanent zombies but on builds that summon zombies to explode them directly, much like Detonate Dead builds use Unearth/Desecrate. Those builds run Strongboxes just fine too and don't quit maps just because it rolled certain monster types.

Signed: someone who hit 100 with corpse builds in HC multiple times

I said 2 builds, the rest can't use it. Stop taking stuff out of context!

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Axzantos#6012 wrote:

I said 2 builds, the rest can't use it. Stop taking stuff out of context!

This is not true....you are looking at this from an extremely narrow perspective: ONLY permanent zombies. That is a single build

That is the most basic way to play zombies. There are MORE variations that don't play zombies that way. You just don't know them or haven't thought about that.

It feels like some people are kinda defending the current iteration of the "Graveyard Shift" node, but the arguments are just "you´re not using it right" or "it´s not meant for that". I mean no shit sherlock, people are suggesting changes because the node doesn´t allow for the playstyle that these people want to play.

Why do you people who seem to be against changes think these changes are bad? How would it make the game worse if the Puppeteer would allow for a permanent zombie playstyle?
There have been a few suggestions on how to change the ascendany to support this playstyle without compromising any other playstyle, so what´s the problem here?

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The puppeteer offers EXCELLENT tech for perma minions. Just not those two nodes.

So would it be a problem for the puppeteer / these two nodes to also support a perma zombie summoner-playstyle?

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

but you wouldn't use that node on permanent zombies but on builds that summon zombies to explode them directly

But some people want to use the node behind it ("Flesh Puppets") for a permanent zombie build but the Graveyard Shift node in it´s current iteration is completely disabling that kind of build (even though the 30% increased number of zombies would still be cool). That´s the whole point of the thread.

people want nice shiny free things - and will try their best to get it because sometimes people budge and actually give stuff away


+5 to a single skill seems too good to be true and guess what - it isnt!

the price for that OBSCENE +5 node is that you CANNOT use the 'normal way'

make a zombie bomber, zombie caustic exploder or whatever that treats zombies as single use plastic straws

but noone would EVER give +5 to any skill without a heavy/tricky penalty, be serious

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Thomsiy#7106 wrote:

So would it be a problem for the puppeteer / these two nodes to also support a perma zombie summoner-playstyle?

Dude......yes it would be a problem. That isn't what it was designed for. The power of Flesh Puppets is the way it is BECAUSE of the node before it. This is the whole idea behind Phrecia....pretty gosh darn powerful ascendancy options, creative usage. In fact, its a fundamental design aspect of the entirety of Path of Exile.

It would be great if every item and every passive benefited EVERY skill or build, because it would make it easier.....but that isn't the point behind "design". And its against the entirety of PoE and buildcrafting.

It is the PLAYER who has to figure out what they want to create, utilizing the things the game provides. It is NOT EVER the game's responsibility to change their design choices because others "want" it to work a certain way. That's an absolutely ridiculous position to take.



It's perfectly fine to not be aware of HOW to use something because you haven't ever tried.....it is NOT okay to ignore everyone telling you how to use something and continue trying to use it incorrectly and then complaining that it doesn't work.


I'm sure plenty of minion lovers would love to dual wield Midnight Bargains while running CI too. But guess what? Not designed that way. Or the new helmet that doubles specific minions but disables the others. Why can't I use that helm with specters and golems? Not designed that way.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Dude......yes it would be a problem. That isn't what it was designed for.

And if the design was bad, would changing it still be a problem? not sure what your argument here is.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The power of Flesh Puppets is the way it is BECAUSE of the node before it.

So you´re saying Flesh Puppets would be too strong otherwise? I can understand that. As sidtherat#1310 said, a +5 to a skill is very powerful and probably wouldn´t be balanced without some kind of drawback. However, i think there might still be a way to balance it out with the Graveyard Shift node without completely bricking permanent zombies - you´re already spending 4 ascendancy points to get Flesh Puppets anyway.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

This is the whole idea behind Phrecia....pretty gosh darn powerful ascendancy options, creative usage. In fact, its a fundamental design aspect of the entirety of Path of Exile.

And it´s completely fine for GGG to stick to exactly that. That doesn´t mean that players can´t voice their wishes or make suggestions. Why would another player argue against that if they´re not negatively affected?
Even if they were negatively affected - if GGG came to the conclusion that they were to implement said suggestions, it would be for the better of the game.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It is the PLAYER who has to figure out what they want to create, utilizing the things the game provides. It is NOT EVER the game's responsibility to change their design choices because others "want" it to work a certain way. That's an absolutely ridiculous position to take.

First of all no one in this thread said anything about GGG having to change their design choices. People are just giving feedback on what they might like more than what is currently available.
Also it´s actually ridiculous to think that a game should NOT EVER change in order to please it´s players. Not every player should ever be pleased with everything they want, but many times people will make valuable suggestions - it´s up for the dev to decide if they think any given suggestion will make the game better or worse. And having a constructive discussion in the community will help them make up their minds.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It's perfectly fine to not be aware of HOW to use something because you haven't ever tried.....it is NOT okay to ignore everyone telling you how to use something and continue trying to use it incorrectly and then complaining that it doesn't work.

Since the league hasn´t even started yet, no one has had the chance to use these nodes "incorrectly". What are you talking about?

I mean i appreciate people giving hints on what nodes can be used for etc. but that´s not the point of the thread.
The thread is about a suggestion to change these nodes in way for them to allow another playstyle. Telling them that the nodes are intended for something different does not add to the discussion, because they obviously know, that they can´t play that way right now. That´s exactly why they´re suggesting it.


As i´ve said above the point made about balance is definitely valid. But i think there still might be a way to make it possible without making it "op". Making Flesh Puppets a two-pointer might be inappropriate, but maybe making Graveyard Shift only count Zombies as corpses only for the player (and not for hostile entities) might be okay.