GGG need to stop listening to streamers and instead listen to actual feedback

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LargeHairyMan#4219 wrote:

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

Following a script.

It is very common for interview.

Most interviews are structured around some form of a script. That's neither here nor there, really.

I mean script script.

Like Jon walking to Zig, giving him a piece of paper and saying: "this is what you ask".

That's how scripted it feels.

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

Some people are smarter than others.

If GGG makes it challenging to the smart...

The regular people will struggle to the point they will not even play the game.

The game has to be accessible to make money.

We cannot have strong campaign moba. We cannot have difficult boss mechanics. We cannot have complex combo.

We have only AOE farming, looting and AOE farming again.

Make peace with this.

Nah man u r wrong people will eventually learn how to beat that boss or what to build or what gear lvl u need for specific content making the game ez just cause some players find it difficult is bad it hinders ggg creativity makes the game stale and brainless the players need to adapt to the game not the other way around.

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Mouedh#5274 wrote:

making the game ez just cause some players find it difficult is bad it hinders ggg creativity makes the game stale and brainless the players need to adapt to the game not the other way around.

There are two paths really:

1. People play hard game. Fail. Complain. Stop playing it.

2. People play easy game. They are happy. They spend money.

GGG tried path 1, seen it goes nowhere, went to path 2.

And there is nothing to be done here.

I think both camps in this argument are right, or wrong, depending on how you look at it. The real answer is to simply have options, such that people who want an easy game can be happy and people who want a difficult game can also be happy.

(Arguably, those who want an "easy" game just want a different kind of challenge; I appreciate that a lot of people like speedrunning, and the challenge for them is to do things as efficiently as possible, and tbh I could never keep up with them.)

For example, I'd like to see some kind of challenge mode version of the campaign for your twink characters or people who want a challenge, which perhaps drops endgame loot instead of the usual leveling gear that I usually ignore when leveling my third character.

Then also, in endgame, infinite scaling, such that it's possible to push my characters to the highest level and still be challenged. I know, I know... lots of people want to just blow up screens in endgame, right? Well you can still do that if GGG gives the OPTION of scaling difficulty up. I'd like to see an area around the start of the endgame that's kinda like the PoE 1 atlas with every possible map, and then beyond that an area that scales infinitely as you go further and further.

I'm sure they have their own ideas though, half of which will be better than anything us players think of; it'll be interesting to see what they cook up.

This thread is incredibly based. I agree, they've made the game too easy now.
It was such a great experience either solo or with friends, to attempt a hard boss a few times before overcoming them.

At the start of 0.3, a friend and I were fairly under-geared when we arrived at Lythara (The interlude boss that uses spear) and we had to attempt her quite a few times. But finally defeating her was glorious, and we agreed that was one of the most memorable and rewarding encounters in our entire play-through. :O
I know this is not a 0.2 example, but the point is about the experience of perceived difficulty, not as an example of where it can be found in game versions.

The game is now quite easy. I was surprised at the comments about "slog, especially with Huntress" after breezing through the campaign, with less than amazing gear. I went through the first act a few days ago and Count Geonor, who used to be a feared milestone and gear/skill check, now kind of feels like a pushover and a very small accomplishment.

There will always be a debate between "accessibility" and challenge, but I do think it cheapens the experience to make these encounters so easily dealt with, without having to stop and think about gearing up and adjusting skills to overcome them.

Imagine if this same complaint were made for Dark Souls, that it is: "too difficult, make it so that I can win without much effort". No, this game isn't Dark Souls. But it is a game, and we can talk about what makes a game interesting and special, when we already have an industry full of games that lack this characteristic, and cater to the largest player base possible. Difficulty (of the right kind) encourages ingenuity, resourcefulness, and feels rewarding. Trivial content feels mundane, unstimulating, bland, and "samey".

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

(Arguably, those who want an "easy" game just want a different kind of challenge; I appreciate that a lot of people like speedrunning, and the challenge for them is to do things as efficiently as possible, and tbh I could never keep up with them.)

For example, I'd like to see some kind of challenge mode version of the campaign for your twink characters or people who want a challenge, which perhaps drops endgame loot instead of the usual leveling gear that I usually ignore when leveling my third character.

I understand your point about "easy = another type of (efficiency) challenge"
But I'll submit to you, that the speed/efficiency tuning approach still exists with difficult combat encounters, and even to some degree makes them more refined and demanding. People speed run Dark Souls for example, because difficulty does not prohibit mastery of a game to the extent that it diminishes or prohibits refining efficiency.

What lack of difficulty may actually do for those refining their efficiency, is devalue that effort by trivializing the content to the point where further efficiency is negligible, and consequently removes a different aspect of challenge, which is for a less familiar player to overcome those challenges to begin with.

How much more rewarding is the process of speed and efficiency, when starting from a place where the boss was not trivial to begin with? =o

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

Some people are smarter than others.

If GGG makes it challenging to the smart...

The regular people will struggle to the point they will not even play the game.

The game has to be accessible to make money.

We cannot have strong campaign moba. We cannot have difficult boss mechanics. We cannot have complex combo.

We have only AOE farming, looting and AOE farming again.

Make peace with this.

I think a lot of people have missed the cynical/sarcastic tone of your comment =)
Obviously you are saying, that since GGG are appealing to a broader audience, PoE2 will be reduced to a less difficult "AoE farming" scenario. So in other words, you are saying "this is why we can't have nice things."

"A game for everyone, is a game for no one."

I think this is true to an extent. People complained and downvoted, and GGG got the message. "We the vocal minority, want a shallow & easy gameplay experience similar to PoE1, or we will be very upset"

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

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LargeHairyMan#4219 wrote:

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Skellymancer#5263 wrote:

Following a script.

It is very common for interview.

Most interviews are structured around some form of a script. That's neither here nor there, really.

I mean script script.

Like Jon walking to Zig, giving him a piece of paper and saying: "this is what you ask".

That's how scripted it feels.

I sympathize, but I really don't think this happens.
What's more likely, is something that occurs with all media interviews, which is that they do not want to create an adversarial relationship with the other party which grants them access. It's much better to establish a friendly rapport with a business partner for the long term. That does not mean that someone who plays the game can't have different opinions about what is wrong, or have a positive outlook on the game (as someone who chose to play it long term, afterall), but it is a very real dynamic that exists.

So no, I don't think GGG is feeding their interviewers questions.. a much more organic explanation exists. It's not usually malice.

btw, Ziz has a pretty well-known and documented interview with Jonathan where some frustration came through in the conversation after 0.2 (again, I disagree with the premise that 0.2 was 'too hard', but there it is). And there is some pretty surprising tone and pushback from Ziz. I don't agree with him, but I don't think we can say he's operating in such a way.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

I understand your point about "easy = another type of (efficiency) challenge"
But I'll submit to you, that the speed/efficiency tuning approach still exists with difficult combat encounters, and even to some degree makes them more refined and demanding. People speed run Dark Souls for example, because difficulty does not prohibit mastery of a game to the extent that it diminishes or prohibits refining efficiency.

Most fights in Dork Souls can be scriped, and most paths the AI groups behave the same way. The same isnt True in PoE 1/2.

The solution that would please all imho, would be keeping the game difficulty as is, build upon and add a tower with floors reusing bosses and scalling up difficulty beyond what exists, like many games do, challenge, epic ladder stuff for the brave, no rewards beyond ladder glory so it cant be exploited for RMT.

Thats my two cents and should keep everyone happy.