Thousands hours later: why players drops and how to bring more fun to the game loop

Hi there, I have been playing PoE 1 since closed beta, collecting some 7000+ hours, on PoE 2 I have gathered 1410H so far. This to say that my feedback comes from experience - albeit personal.

Wanted to collect some thoughts on why players drop, and what to do to make the game more interesting.

I cluster players in three categories of droppers: players that drop in campaign, early mapping, and pinnacle tier. Why do they leave?

Campaign: unclear quests, difficulty spike, lack of understanding around defences;
Early mapping: boss difficulty, inability to level up;
Pinnacle: there is nothing more to do, game is repetitive;

I have friends from all "tiers", asked their opinion on those I'm not a part of, it's limited data, but I'd say it's indicative.

In general, the issue is a lack of fun, coming from different sides.

Here are some potential fixes for each issue, and some generic ones:

- General improvements:

- More game-changing uniques
- Rework most of the unused uniques
- Less aggressive policy on nerfs
- Allow on/off Delirium fog
- Drastically increase Abyss uniques usefulness
- More content alternative to the core (in years to come, I get it)

- Campaign quitters (seeing it as a long cool tutorial):

- Clarify some quest objectives
- Simplify UI so that new players are nudged gently
- Slightly increase campaign drops
- Include a small basic crafting tutorial

- Early mapping quitters:

- Add a death recap (even just the damage types you suffered)
- Allow an easier way to skip maps and jump around without overdoing it
- Use quests to award character-bound uniques for building defences

- Sweat lords

- Make bossing worth again
- Add uses for exalts to keep market in check
- Fix mapping feeling like a chore (not sure what to suggest about that)

Now, some words about the state of the game and some specific suggestions from above.

The game is great, considering it's not yet finished - we gotta keep that in mind.

There is the uneasy feeling that some issues are voluntarily overlooked to then fix them, as a game philosophy rather than a staff limitation: tower design, parry mechanics, etc

When I talk of mechanics apart from the core, I mean things you can do instead of mapping: heist, lab, endless dungeon, etc. It always has to bring us back to core, by needing sulphite, or some similar shanenigan, but should also allow me to spend 50%+ of my time away from the same-same. पितॄणां परीक्षां पुनः आनय, याचयामि ते |. According to google translate, I'm begging for Trial of the Ancestor to be back asap.

Regarding uniques, we'd need more value spread, so far it's 95% of items are not useful and worth nothing, 5% is extremely costly. We need the "in-between", I'd like to progress rather than exploding into greatness. I understand some are aimed at levelling, make them drop in campaign, and have endgame drop some of the best quick levellers item to keep the market up.

"Build of the week" is a cool, useful, and fun concept, keep it up and go wild with it!

[Assuming I'm right about numbers] When playing in a party of 2, monster go from 100% to 200% health, drops go from 100% to 150%. From dropping the totality of currencies, now I would drop 75% of what I'd get alone. As a result, we often play in silos, all on discord, all on different maps. We need to enrich party play beyond drop squads of rarity sweatlords. Some new stuff can happen if in party, instead than just a game of numbers being multiplied. Wouldn't abyssal lords send something special our way to separate us? Won't map bosses call some friends to even the odds? How about the Maven waking up to slap us onto oblivion, punishing our teaming up hubris?

Thanks for reading so far, Exile.

[EDIT]

Forgot to add what I meant with "less aggressive nerfs": take the Ingenuity belt, from chase items to not appearing in filter. I'd suggest nerfing with a gentler touch, instead of nuking what worked last season.

Archmage? Temporalis? I get why the nerfs, but we can be creative about it.

In PoE 1 there was the need to nerf the Headhunter but touching it would have brought people with pitchforks to the GGG studios: they altered the effects on rare to make it a bit more annoying to use, still a super fun and useful unique.

Next season lightning spear will get the axe, or the rhoa mount perhaps. How about allowing other mechanics that push the fun in other builds?

I played a monk as starter, did all the content except delirium (too grey and no corpses), now playing Last Lament, it goes just too fast to go back. We need more diversity in the S-Tier, some 40% of player are swinging spears -> don't nerf the spear, buff the rest. That was my thought.

GGG needs to state clearly what's the core philosophy for POE2 is, i.e what's their ideal of fun, and be consistent with it.

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XxxPssySlayerxxX#5201 wrote:

GGG needs to state clearly what's the core philosophy for POE2 is, i.e what's their ideal of fun, and be consistent with it.

I've said a few times that it has felt like PoE2 is being developed by two separate people who don't agree on the fundamental design idea.

The early game is slower and detailed, while the later game is fast-paced and enriching. And this can work as a core concept, but certain classes have slow combos they have to survive through, while others are so unrestrained they can do their combos and avoid combat entirely. It's a universe apart in game design.

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XxxPssySlayerxxX#5201 wrote:

GGG needs to state clearly what's the core philosophy for POE2 is, i.e what's their ideal of fun, and be consistent with it.

I believe they tried, but missed the mark: they said PoE 1 and 2 was going to be a single game, two campaigns, shared end game, so we'd expect a continuation.

Then they said it's separate now, and it will be a slower gameplay with more active combat, but most of the players were from PoE1 (like myself) and expected zoom zoom to still happen, so it was baked in.

Afterall it's PoE 2, not a new IP, should be a better version of the 1, but I'd agree with you that the ambiguity here is hurting everyone: is it a direct following? If no, what changes? If no, will we keep getting flawless PoE1 support or patchy efforts?

I must say I believe the window for differentiating from PoE1 has already closed tho.

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HashBob#0163 wrote:

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XxxPssySlayerxxX#5201 wrote:

GGG needs to state clearly what's the core philosophy for POE2 is, i.e what's their ideal of fun, and be consistent with it.

I've said a few times that it has felt like PoE2 is being developed by two separate people who don't agree on the fundamental design idea.

The early game is slower and detailed, while the later game is fast-paced and enriching. And this can work as a core concept, but certain classes have slow combos they have to survive through, while others are so unrestrained they can do their combos and avoid combat entirely. It's a universe apart in game design.

I agree with what you're saying, and my solution would be to allow more diversification and skills. The new supports are a step towards that, must admit.

Slowness in late game will always put you in tier B at best, given farming strats require speed - especially when bossing isn't worth it.

I pray for gentle buffs.

I think you're trying to think too deeply, when the real problem is much simpler. People quit because they realize the game will consume too much time just to provide a small sense of accomplishment. They also think that not only will they waste time trying to achieve that feeling, but they'll also experience too many stressful moments and encounter an excessive amount of nerd-driven chaos that has no place in ordinary human life.

For me this game has huge potential, if they won't convert it into an another PoE1 gottagofast scam. I've more than 12k hours in both games and all I can say is I believe in GGG, they did the impossible and carried the rpg genre despite their community. I think they need some time.

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Jideament#2792 wrote:

I think you're trying to think too deeply, when the real problem is much simpler. People quit because they realize the game will consume too much time just to provide a small sense of accomplishment. They also think that not only will they waste time trying to achieve that feeling, but they'll also experience too many stressful moments and encounter an excessive amount of nerd-driven chaos that has no place in ordinary human life.

For me this game has huge potential, if they won't convert it into an another PoE1 gottagofast scam. I've more than 12k hours in both games and all I can say is I believe in GGG, they did the impossible and carried the rpg genre despite their community. I think they need some time.

Sounds like me eheh.

I stated that the issue is lack of fun, just tried to flesh out where it can come from with actual solutions, didn't want to just say "game bad, bonk".

As for the "despite community", fair, I'm seeing where the energy is going in this forum, but I'd say nothing out of the ordinary, game-wise.

I'd keep playing if I could actually get ritual tablets to get omens but I can't and it doesn't look like they care to fix what I assume is a bug.

IMO SC players drop mainly when the trade market inflation outpaces their ability to keep up. Since you no longer can trade gear to improve your character you're stuck. This was mostly okay in 0.3 since you could actually put some time in to get the omens you need for a good craft - but now you can't in 0.3.1 so there's just no hope and the omen prices are skyrocketing.

The long and short of it is people quit when they feel like they've hit a wall that will take way too long to climb. This can be either in terms of impossible to get gear, "impossible" to level chars, or even when you're fully completed the character and all content.

You're then left with the choice of either trying to do an alt and slog through the campaign again or just quit.

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Weaver#3527 wrote:

I'd keep playing if I could actually get ritual tablets to get omens but I can't and it doesn't look like they care to fix what I assume is a bug.

IMO SC players drop mainly when the trade market inflation outpaces their ability to keep up. Since you no longer can trade gear to improve your character you're stuck. This was mostly okay in 0.3 since you could actually put some time in to get the omens you need for a good craft - but now you can't in 0.3.1 so there's just no hope.

The long and short of it is people quit when they feel like they've hit a wall that will take way too long to climb. This can be either in terms of impossible to get gear, "impossible" to level chars, or even when you're fully completed the character and all content.

You're then left with the choice of either trying to do an alt and slog through the campaign again or just quit.

I feel you. The tablet thing is most likely a bug, something is definitely off.

As for the choice, I'm where you're saying: new char or endless mindless farming, and neither is appealing enough.

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Peeveswozere#2395 wrote:

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Jideament#2792 wrote:

...

As for the "despite community", fair, I'm seeing where the energy is going in this forum, but I'd say nothing out of the ordinary, game-wise.

I apologize, I didn't mean anything negative when I said that. I was trying to say that their community is always trying to rush things.

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Weaver#3527 wrote:

I'd keep playing if I could actually get ritual tablets to get omens but I can't and it doesn't look like they care to fix what I assume is a bug...

PM me your nick I'll add you and give you what you want if it's okay for you and if you're not playing solo self found.